Full Transcript
In the words of Nick Venegoni, “Initiation is a moment when you can step into the next level of power.” Nick compares initiation to leveling up, like in gaming. You gain a new power. What if this is true? What if we can reframe the challenges in our lives as initiations that not only help us get through the hard moments but also help us to level up?
This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Today we are going to explore a recent conversation I had with Nick Venegoni. Nick has been a guest on Shame Piñata and hosts his own show called The Queer Spirit Podcast. The Queer Spirit Podcast highlights conversations with artists, healers & activists who enliven, heal & empower the LGBTQ+ communities.
In the following episode of The Queer Spirit Podcast you will hear a discussion focusing on ritual, initiation and change. Topics covered include the ritual I created to honor the 10 year anniversary of my father's passing, the first ritual I ever did, how rituals help us make sense of change and the power of initiation. We will also touch on coming out as one of the biggest queer initiations, my own coming out story and also, the story behind the name of the Shame Pinata podcast.
Stay tuned through the end of Nick's show for a preview of what's coming on Shame Piñata this summer. And now, The Queer Spirit Podcast.
Venegoni: Welcome to The Queer Spirit Podcast. I'm your host, Nick Venegoni. Here we have conversations with artists, healers, and activists who enliven the LGBTQ+ communities, and who empower our queer spirits to flourish. Before we get started with the interview, if you haven't heard, I've started a Patreon account for the podcast. Patreon is a way for you to help support the show and get special rewards in return such as a thank you shout out on the show, and an enameled button with the queer spirit logo. This year, I've also added access to videos of the podcast interviews and a free monthly live virtual sound bath. If you'd like to join in supporting the show, just go to patreon.com/queerspirit. You can also find the link in the show notes. Any Patreon funds remaining after the basic production costs will be donated to nonprofit supporting diverse queer communities. Once again that link is patreon.com/queerspirit. Thanks for your consideration.
Venegoni: My guest today is Colleen Thomas. Colleen is a ritual artist and independent audio producer her podcast Shame Piñata focuses on creating rites of passage for real life transitions. Today we talk about the importance of ritual as a container and support for big and small changes in our lives. Colleen shares how she discovered the power of ritual to help her feel supported through life's challenges. She also shares some examples of the ways people have honored their relationships from the stories heard on her podcast. Find Colleen and her show at shamepinata.com.
Venegoni: Hi, Colleen, welcome to the show.
Thomas: Hi, Nick, it's so good to be here with you.
Venegoni: Yeah, I'm excited to talk a little bit more about your podcast, having recently been a guest on it myself and share a little bit more about the vision that you're bringing out into the world. But before we do that, I wonder if you can just tell us a little bit about what inspired you to start a podcast about rites of passage?
Thomas: Sure. Well, I guess it's sort of a roundabout answer. I have a very strong interest in radio and working in radio in some capacity, which there's a story around that too. But I'll just stick with this story. I was offered an internship with a local radio station and was so excited about it. But then I also started a new day job that exact same moment and I couldn't do both because one was 40 hours a week, and one was 20 hours a week and I was going to have a three hour a day commute so there's no way it was gonna fit! And so after about a year of getting my feet settled at the new job and learning all the new things with the commute and all the changes, life change, I found an audio coach and she helped me figure out a podcast project because I just wanted to be doing something. And I really wanted it to be about performance art, because I'm very interested in performance art and developing myself as a performance artist. But she said, “You keep telling me amazing stories about ritual.” And I decided… first I was like, “No… ritual... yeah, I do that all the time. I want to do this new thing.” And she's like, “No, no, I really think about it.” And then I thought about it and then I decided, “Yes, this is a thing. This is an important piece of my life. I have a master's degree in spirituality, I've put a lot of thought and energy into it. And I love to design ritual,” so I decided to make that the focus of the show.
Venegoni: Great. So what is your history and your background with… or your just... your relationship with a ritual in general?
Thomas: Well, I was an only child, I am an only child, so when I was a kid, I did a lot of things on my own. So I think a lot of my creativity comes from that. My friends say that I'm like, the most creative person they know. I'm like, sort of... that's like, “Oh, you're so creative.” They always say that. So I think I kind of had that already. And make believe it's been a really big part of my life, you know, I can see... I can entertain myself, I'm fine on my own. And I was religious when I was a kid but I wasn't... I guess really wasn't spiritual until I had sort of an awakening after college when I realized that my moon flow was a very sacred thing for me. And the time of the menstruation became a very big spiritual practice for me. And that led me to a school in Oakland, California, Matthew Fox's University of Creation Spirituality... well, that sort of spiritual, that awakening spirituality and me led me there. And then I got to focus on the blood mysteries for my master's thesis. So I got to really delve into the concept of the Red Tent during that time. And just sort of around that time, I just started, you know, honoring the new moon and the full moon and creating ritual for this and that and I just began to realize that rites of passage are super important, like whenever anything is going on in my life that you know is a little difficult or challenging, or I want my community around me... or it's usually for me, always things that nobody would understand. So like there's no ceremony for this weird thing is happening in my life, so I'm gonna have to create it. So that's kind of what prompted creating ceremony.
Venegoni: Yeah. And for you what is important about creating some kind of ritual or ceremony for these strange or unique or significant things that are happening in your life?
Thomas: Well, they're important, and they're usually scary and new, and I don't want to be alone in them. And they're all really important moments. And I guess it's basically I don't want to be alone.
Venegoni: And even if it's something that's just happening to you, can you just share like how, by doing ritual, you don't feel alone?
Thomas: Well, I usually do it in community. So that's kind of a built-in way. I do ritual by myself but lately, it's been more in community. I guess, what I do mostly when I'm alone, is I'm often planning something that I'm doing in community. So bringing people together... I just had a big ritual for myself about a month ago on the anniversary of my father's death, the 10 year anniversary of my father's death, honoring another step I felt I had taken in my own healing from that relationship. And it was really healing for me to plan it and to sense into what was changing exactly, and it was several things. And to honor... to figure out where those things wanted to go and exactly what would honor them. And exactly, then how would I bring community into that? And like, what would that look like? And it involved some jewelry, presenting myself with jewelry [LAUGHS] This is a typical theme for me - I have a whole bunch of significant jewelry. And I picked people to present me with the pieces. And those people, I gave them the full lowdown, “This is exactly what this means, and let's work together on how you will present this to me, you know, in ritual space.” And then I had... I also invited everybody to that particular ritual to bring something. So it's very important for me to have everybody's voice in the circle. And so everybody brought some kind of reading. Everybody got involved in some way. And the beauty of that is that at first I thought, “Oh, I'll just send out… please read that.” And then I was getting some… “Oh, that doesn't resonate with me... that doesn't… that feels weird”, or, you know, or “Can I read this?” and that was kind of I didn't want that. But then it actually turned into this really much deeper and richer involvement of each person so that they really showed up with this thing that meant something to them and then they contributed. So then it was like we were weaving, constantly weaving, this circle deeper and stronger with all of us. And it ultimately helped me achieve one of my big goals with ceremony, which is even if it's for me, for everybody to get something out of it as much as that's possible. And everybody always says things like, “Oh, you did this for us. This isn't for you, you engineered this for us” you know… It's like I'm always really happy when they they feel that way about it. Yeah,
Venegoni: Yeah. Yeah. And you've used a word that I really resonate with when I think about ritual, which is weaving. You know, in pagan communities, when we talk about spellcrafting, we talk about weaving a spell. But even for those who don't resonate with the word spell, I do think even in ritual, particularly with other people, that there's this way that it feels woven together, like we all have a little a part of it, you know. I think about this idea of like the maypole at Beltane when people... everyone's holding on to a ribbon and they're all dancing together, and they're weaving this beautiful pattern around the pole. Or even if you're alone, and you are working with Spirit or other Deities, there's a way in which they are working with you and they're weaving this ritual with you together. And it could be the image I'm getting right now is, you know, weaving a blanket of protection or comfort around you if there's grief or sorrow, or some challenge happening. But the.. I really like that image and that sense of weaving. Do you have a special memory of one of your own rites of passage? I mean, you just mentioned this one about the anniversary of your father's death. But I wonder if there's something in particular maybe even like the first one that felt significant to you that really felt like, “Oh, this is for me, I'm really, you know, this works for me better than, you know, maybe this other religion that I was raised”?
Thomas: Hmm. Well, I had a period of my life when I was just first in college, I met a woman who was a bi witch. And those both were new concepts to me - like as them as being legitimate was new to me. Like I had heard of bisexual people in my life, but it was always with, “Oh, yeah, that person is a little confused...” You know, like, it was never like, “Oh, that person's bi and they're cool.” or, “They're just a person”, you know, like, it was always like, there was a caveat that it was like - bad. And even from my gay friends that's what I was hearing. And later when I came out to some of my gay friends as bi, they were kind of like, “Oh, I'm sorry.” and I was like, “Just stop it!” So... but she was bi and so that was a little challenge for me, too. Like, you know, like, “Oh wait, she's really amazing” reprogramming you know, my brain. And then she was a witch and something about her being both challenged me in those ways at the same time. And I think I was always a witch and just didn't know it. When I was six or four or something like that, my mom made me a bad witch costume. The Wizard of Oz was big in our house. So she made me the bad witch costume. And the next year, she made me the Good Witch costume. And then I just, I literally wore them every year. I rotated the Good Witch, Bad Witch, Good Witch, just like and… I liked the Good Witch costume a little bit better because it had a like a princess... the hat was turned into like a princess hat and it had like a big piece of taffeta hanging down off the point, you know, so it sort of swirled around me. And so that felt very pretty to me, and soft, and blue was very blue. But other than that I didn't have a preference of the Good Witch, Bad Witch. And so I just feel like then later meeting this woman in college and realizing what being a witch meant to her being a pagan, earth based spirituality and learning what that was, that just felt like, wow, that makes so much more sense than, you know, the way I was trained to learn all the Christian things I was raised with. Those always felt very important to me, but I've never understood them and spent a fair amount of time banging my head against the wall trying to get them in. And it just never really it never fit. It never exactly made sense to me. And so then I met her and then I sort of moved into that space. And so that freshman year, I remember the spring of my freshman year in college, I remember, that was like a real time of awakening. And I was surrounding myself with pagan learnings and pagan experiences. And I had one, I don't usually refer to them as spells. Now, like you mentioned that word, I don't really resonate with that word. But when I first came to it, that word was used a lot. And so I was sort of involved in that word. And my first spell I did was it was this, like, “Let me be healthy and green. Love myself. Love the planet…” It was very, like, very, it was very good witchy! under a tree. And I just sort of like I read something out of a book, which is totally not the way I operate. Now, like I would never read something out of a book or a spell now, because it's like, “Wait, now what does that mean? And what was the intention behind that?” and I'm not going to read out of a book unless I really love it. But I was, you know, under this tree reading this spell, and it was something about having a green cord and tying it on a tree or something. And it was just basically a prayer. It was very simple. But I remember that as being a very profound moment of me moving into this nature-based place that felt so empowering and so lush and so real and immediate.
Venegoni: So one of the things that you sort of tagline in your podcast as you want to talk to people about how rituals help us make a sense of change. And we sort of touched on that a little bit. But I'm curious, both through your own experience, and through the interviews you've had with people, like, how do rituals help us make sense of change?
Thomas: Well, early on in my show, one of my guests, Betty Ray, she said, “Rituals help us create a container to hold the powerful emotions that come with change.” And that really, like I was like, Yeah. Like all my guests have been putting words to these things I've been feeling all this time and that is exactly… to me... that resonates for me. Because... if the other thing that I've been noticing is like if I'm developing this theory that we can handle change, and change is a very constant thing, but we don't like it. And we like to just tick tick tick tick along like normal and like, “Okay, I'm good if this like, you know, all these things in my life stay the same, and it's good, I'm good.” But then like something happens, then I go into this place of, “Oh!” and upset and fear. And it's like strong emotions. Basically like boom, strong emotions! So then maybe that's a situation... problems, not all of them. But maybe that's a situation where a ritual could help. You know, I was brainstorming last night, my next episode, which I'm thinking about calling, like, Do you need a ceremony? Or is it time for ceremony? Or how do you know you need to ceremony or something like that. And I was thinking about all the changes in our lives that happened, and maybe which ones of them, you know, how do we know if we want to ceremony around this or not? Like, like, if I need to move, maybe I don't have time for a ceremony because I'm busy moving so like, sorry, you know. But if somebody is that I love is sick and I can't be with them, maybe that's a perfect time for ceremony for myself, or to gather people around me to sit with me while I hold space for them, you know, across the miles or whatever is challenging. We can feel into like, “Would something be helpful? Would it be helpful to create a container for these emotions? Or would it just be helpful to like, write them all down in a journal and like, just put them somewhere?” You know, like, it doesn't have to be, you know, a zoom call with friends or people in my living room or you know, it doesn't have to be a big thing. It could be a very small, intentional act to help deal with a situation. Yeah.
Venegoni: And I know that something You and I had discussed on your show a little bit was the concept of initiation. And I'm curious, you know, what sort of your ideas are about initiation, what initiation means, particularly in the construct of a ritual?
Thomas: Well, you were the one who said that on my show, I thought it was Thom, but it was you. And it was really a magical moment for me when you said that I was like, “Oh, my gosh, this is that's exactly…” Like I had been framing it like that, like, when I think of initiation, I tend to think of, you know, Imbolc, or, you know, joining a group and, you know, going through something... being initiated into, like, a coven or something official like that, like… Not just like, “Oh, I'm going into phase 27A of my life now” You know, and, or my relationship now, right? And so that's an initiation. So like that, that just struck me as like, wow, that's beautiful way to put it, because, especially if something is coming up that I don't want, you know, like, this thing is like, “Oh god, this horrible thing is happening in my life!” Like, you know, how, yes, I'm changing, I'm being forced to change in this moment. How can I reframe this as an initiation? Or how is it initiation, or what I want to claim and is one now, like, and what's being ignited in me what's being birthed in me and needing to deal with this change, right? And then, of course, the we can, you know, becoming 40, becoming 50, becoming 60, getting married, having a baby, all those things, you know, initiations into a new phase of life, it just seems to me like using that word initiation makes it, it just feels really different than saying, “I'm going into a hard thing or changing in some way.”
Venegoni: Well, what I'm thinking about right now, as we talked about, is if you just take the word initiate, usually to initiate something means that you are doing it of your own volition. You know, you've talked about some of these other things that just kind of happen that we don't have control over like death, or the cycles of our body… you know, those kinds of things that often we know that they're going to come but we have to just prepare and deal with it and so let's just create this container to have to work through it more easily. But to initiate something means that you are doing it because you have to. So that was just something I just thought of now is like that's a way to sort of take the power back. And that's also the way that I think about initiation. So it's a moment when you can step into the next level of power. You know, if you think about it from a sort of gaming perspective, it's a level up. You gain a new power, and what is that power? And how do you really sink into that and hold that? Or what is that new tool that you may acquire through this process of the ritual and what comes after that?
Thomas: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think so too. It's like a choice. Yeah.
Venegoni: And in our culture, you know, there are certain things especially from a religious perspective that we do initiate ourselves, you know, as you've talked... mentioned, and you talk about on your podcast is weddings and baptism and other things. But, you know, I also talked to people about like an initiation, like a graduation as an initiation.
Thomas: Definitely.
Venegoni: You know, you are completing something, you are gaining this certificate or this diploma, that's gonna give you power and allow you to, you know, level up in your career or in your work or whatever it is that you do, and you can bring that out into the world.
Thomas: Yeah, they often call it matriculation. You know, I had a situation in my school where somebody didn't have a diploma because they had matriculated; they were in a different system. They were like, “Well, you didn't graduate.” It's like... it’s the same thing! Yeah, but that word has like going on, that means going on finishing. So it's like it's a different way of... we call it graduation, but it's really matriculation, which is going on.
Venegoni: Yeah, yeah. And as I think I talked about on your show, and I'll just mention it again here for folks, as I think one of the biggest initiations that queer folks go through is coming out, you know, coming out in terms of your sexuality or your gender identity. And it's also something that, you know, a lot of queer people... we have to continue to come out to more and more people as we move on and, and that there is a way in which it's looked at as something scary, or, you know, because it can be a significant change for people if their family or their community or their loved ones are not accepting that, they could be rejected or abandoned. But there's also a claiming of power that can happen with that too, like I'm stepping more fully into my truth and who I am. And there may be some big changes that happen that I don't have control over. But what are the ways that I can take this forward with more power and feel more solid and myself?
Thomas: Definitely. Definitely. I feel like the coming out stories are very powerful to hear. And when we go to that place and queer community where people share their coming out stories, it's like... it's that deep, powerful sharing that happens within a group where everybody in the group, you know, gets it. And they've all got their own, like really deep well from it. And there's just a very personal place. And so obviously, hearing coming out stories for anybody would be powerful, hopefully. But within the community, it's like... it's all kind of like... it's just so much. It's so powerful.
Venegoni: Yeah. Now, I've noticed that on your podcast, you've had a fair number of episodes where you talk about weddings. And I understand because that's probably the most common, you know, whether or not people are spiritual or religious, they still go through that ritual of a wedding, even if it's just going to the courthouse and signing a document. There's still something ritualistic about it. But I'm curious to know, like, if you've learned anything interesting or unique by talking to so many different people about their weddings, or, you know, if weddings have taken on a new meaning for you, now that you've heard so many different stories about it?
Thomas: Well, I chose weddings as a focus for season one, because I thought, just like you said, it could be a good entry point for folks and I thought I might stick with a theme for each season going forward. And then I decided that I didn't know I could get enough stories about like coming of age for season two, or whatever. So maybe I just needed to kind of go generic, but I wanted that to be an entry point for people. And I talked about two different sorts of ideas behind rites of passage on the show. One is the ones that there are and there aren't party decorations for. That’s kind of the way I see it, like, there are party decorations for weddings, and graduations, and well... not exactly funerals, but that's accepted as like, you know, a rite of passage or community time around a significant change. And then there's the personal ones, like the one I'm talking with my father, you know, the 10 year anniversary of my father’s passing, like, there’s no party decorations for that, right? So I got to create it myself. So I sort of want to have those two branches constantly in the show, right? So… but to your question about learning about weddings, I've just been inspired by people who have done it their way, which is kind of... and I have sought out those people. “You did it your way. Come talk to me!” you know… And your handfasting with Thom resonated so much with what I did, in my own experience, with my husband. It was like pretty much... we did a very similar thing of involving the community, being married by everybody. We invited, you know, big, huge ritual, you know, in a big space, big… nobody's sitting in chairs, everybody's super involved the entire two hours, you know, like so it was a really... it was a joy to speak with the two of you, because it resonated so strongly with my experience which I still have so much good feeling about. You know, and there was one interview with Betsy Weiss, she and her partner, Brandon, they had not gotten married, they had a ceremony which was not a marriage. And that was so she could be connected with her family before her mother passed. So it was as if they were getting married - it was sort of hard to conceptualize. And her aunts like had to make centerpieces because they didn't know what to do. They were like, “We're gonna make centerpieces!” you know, we're just like… “Okay, you're not getting married, but we're gonna make centerpieces…” because it was such a hard time for the family and her mother was passing away. But it was like... they did a wedding right before her mother died but they consciously did not get married. And they had one everybody understand that, and everybody was really confused. But like, they did exactly what they wanted. In the end, everybody kind of got it, you know, and they had this lovely... different levels of the ceremony where the deeper ceremony was very intimate, it was just the family. And then they had like, another level where they had was sort of like a reception, but it was like a gathering of more people. And then another gathering of more people, like sequentially throughout the day not like another day. And it was just really beautiful, the way that they involved everybody at different levels, you know, in different ways around the ceremony that was super meaningful to them that people really didn't get, but they showed up for anyway. And they were just kind of trusting, “I think this is what you want…” you know, like… So it was just … that was the most unique one. But they've all been super inspiring in terms of everybody doing it their own way. And really, it's kind of soul searching in the process, because a lot of people in the interview share their process with me, you know, how did you get from here to there, you know, and taking it apart and really finding what sparked for them, you know, what does this need to be for us? How do we make it happen?
Venegoni: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I like about that, and what you've sort of mentioned before, is that with ritual, it can usually be a lot more, a lot richer and more special if you are making it your own. You know, you talked about the first ritual that you did that you just kind of read out of the book, and you're like, “I don't really know, but I don't know how to do this. I'm just going to read something out of a book”, but now you only create it yourself. And that's one of the things that I talked to a lot of queer folks About especially queer couples or people who are in any kind of relationship, and they're like, “Well, I don't know if I want to get married…” or even if they do get married, like how they structure their relationship itself. It's like, you get to make it what you want. And I think that that something's unique that straight people can do too and they just don't think about it or know it. They just feel like, “Oh, I have to follow this formula,” you know? But you can make the ritual what you want it to be. It doesn't have to look like it looks in the wedding magazines or on TV, or that you can make your relationship look how you want it to look. And so, you know, that's just one of the things I think is really important to get across to all people, you know, just to keep sharing that. So I really like that, you know, that they created this unique thing for themselves. And like, this is not a wedding. I mean, it sounds kind of like a loosely, maybe a commitment ceremony.
Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I don't think they would have used that word for some reason, but I think you could, it was like an acknowledgement of their relationship. Yeah.
Venegoni: It's an announcement of like, this is who we are,
Thomas: What you just said, was making me think that telling people you can do... I do that a lot, you can do anything. You know, out of the box, it’s up to you. And yet people like, “Okay, if I can do anything, then what does that mean?” Like I mean that's like, “Jump off a cliff!” You know? There's like, you know… anything's possible and so it can be helpful to have, I guess that's kind of another thing I'm hoping maybe my show would fill or things like my show, it's like, here's a bunch of examples of things people have done. And like when I work with people to help them create a ceremony, I'll sort of feel into… “Okay, exactly, what are you looking for here?” and then like, then I'll just start throwing out… “Listen, I'm just going to dump a bunch of ideas out and you're going to maybe like a couple, you're maybe not going to hate a couple, whatever, I'm just dumping them on the table, and then you can just sort of flip through them. And if anything resonates, you know…” Then, because we need like some building blocks, when we go from a total structure to total nothingness, that doesn't work unless you really like... you've got a thread to build on, or you've already kind of picturing something, you’ve got a felt sense of what you want, and brainstorm. And all that… it kinda doesn't come out of nowhere. Like it has to be built. So... or has that you have to let it build, right? So it's like, we all need examples, like we all need that. Like, as a woman, I would say, we need that strong woman that we're like, that's a woman who's married, and she's still completely in herself. That... I like that and I want to build on that idea. Like, I did that in my life, you know? And so, like, we need examples, and we need ideas to kick around.
Venegoni: Yeah, yeah, and that's, you know, one of the things I think is really great about your show, that it helps people hear, oh, this is something different and that's possible. And maybe I want to do something kind of like that, but maybe not exactly the same and I'll take a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I mean, to me, that's also a ritual is a little bit of this, and a little bit of that. Throw it all together, and you see what happens.
Thomas: Exactly and then you mix it all the people and yeah…
Venegoni: And then the day of, you know, the magic comes together, and you're like, Oh, it's created something completely different. The alchemy of the ritual.
Thomas: Exactly, yeah. You never know what's gonna happen.
Venegoni: So Colleen, before we wrap up, can you share with us a personal practice or experience that has supported your career spiritual flourish?
Thomas: You know, really, I would say, my mom. She... the short version of my coming out story is that my dad laughed, and my mom cried. And it was, you know, a hard moment. But then over the years, she became an advocate. It was like, extremely slow, from my perspective. You know, I would be at pride and I would see a PFLAG contingent and I would cry. I would always cry when I saw PFLAG because I just thought, “Oh my god, I'm so lost. My parents will never ever, ever, ever, ever be there.” And I just was just such a devastating to me that I mean, they hadn't been mean, they hadn't been cruel, but they were just never going to go there is what it felt like. And it mailed my mom one of the PFLAG books and I told her, “Listen, you got to find people to process with because I can't process this with you because I'm the problem in this, you know, equation for you.” And I sent it to her work because I didn't want like my dad to see it at the house. And she said she kept it in a drawer for a couple of years, I think. And then she read it. And then she found a PFLAG group in our town, which... Our town is very small so the PFLAG group was also like the gay group. So it was like both supporters and queer people. And there she met a woman who ran the Unitarian Church, and she was the pastor of the... minister of the Unitarian Church. She was a lesbian, and she thought she was amazing. And so then she joined the Unitarian Church... anyway, all this snowball effect, right? And that she was around a lot of queer people and, and then it... you know, years later, she sent me this picture of herself standing in front of the television. So my dad had taken it because my dad just watched TV 24/7 after he retired and, well that's not true but he was often watching TV. And so she stood in front of the TV. And she said, “Take a picture of me!” And she was wearing a like a sandwich board, like an advertising sandwich board that said, “I love my bisexual daughter”. And she was headed off to pride in some city nearby. And she said… she told me that she said to him, “There are five phases in, I don't know, acceptance or something”, you know. “The first is denial, that's where you are. The last one is advocacy, that's where I am!” And then she walked out of the room with her her sandwich board. You know, now she's still a big advocate when she can get out, she’ll go to pride stuff. And so she's jus... and she says to me, you know, it's really sad that my dad never really changed at all. And she said, “You know, it's really sad that your dad never really moved,” but she was just so… And, you know, and just knowing that when I was back at this Pride Parade, seeing the PFLAG, and it was just devastating to me, like, never ever imagining that she would end that there'd be any movement with them. It was just, she was really… She became a lot more comfortable with the witch thing too, eventually. So that was really scary, too. Of course, you know, we get it, we get a lot of messages about about witches that are bad. So she's continuing on an ongoing basis, being a very supportive person in my life.
Venegoni: So one last question. Your show is called shame pan, yada. Can you help us understand what that's about?
Thomas: Yeah, sure. So when I was coming up with names for the show, I was trying to think of like descriptive names, like, you know, reinventing ritual, things like that. And I was brainstorming with my husband, and he said, “Well, you could call it like blue dog. And it won't matter what you call it, as long as you then you know, put out your message and people associate your message with the words blue dog.” So he said, “So, you know, maybe think about that.” So I was thinking about that, and brainstorming with a friend at work. And I said, “Well, I don't know, like this blue dog idea. I don't know if I want to do that.” And she said, ”Well, okay, if you looked around, like what you do when you do ritual, and what do you see? You know, we don't see a blue dog, what do you see?” And I said, “Oh, I see a shame piñata because I had just done a ritual recently, which is how I had that job where I was with this new coworker on lunch talking about this, where I had been at my old job (and I'm going to do an episode on this, but I haven't yet) I had... I was at a job for 14 years and I stayed like 10 years longer than I probably should have. And each of those years, I ended up sort of dying inside and sort of a way, right? This happens. And when I didn't make the change I needed to make. And it got to a really critical moment and I needed to leave. And I had so many, so many, so many hard feelings. There were like 10 years of hard feelings about myself being at this job, which was crazy. And I decided that shame exposure was a tool I wanted to use, which is something I had learned about in therapy, where we talk about something we feel deeply shameful about in a safe place, with people who will be kind and not, you know, laugh and stuff. And so I created a ritual around... it was shame I was feeling about staying in this job. And I did a ritual around it and with some friends on on zoom. This was before the pandemic, but they were remote friends, I wanted to have them involved, just my like four closest friends in the world and... because I feel like, “I'm not gonna tell too many people about all this shame!” And so part of the ritual involves piñata that I bought on Amazon, that I put sort of the negative self talk... I just kind of let it all come out of my head and I pasted it all over this piñata and it was just all these awful words on this piñata. And I decided it was my shame piñata and part of the ritual involved finding it in myself to be ready to shift to like, “Let's make this change now!” And being not just an idea. It started with the idea, “Oh, I should go break the shame piñata.” And then it was like standing in front of the shame piñatawith a stick going, “I'm just… I want to die. I don't have any desire to actually do this.” And it was like, “Just let the ground open up and swallow me now. Whatever it is watching me like I'm still in it.” But then waiting, just waiting, just waiting and starting to hear this little voice say, “No.” It was very quiet. And then it got louder. And I just let it organically grow. And then pretty soon it was like “No!” and it moved into my arms. And then it was like smashing the piñata and then that magic happened, right? And then it like changed and shifted and a few other things in the ceremony facilitated that as well. But it was the like the moments, the ceremony was like the breaking of the shame piñata and it really worked. It worked. It got me like boom! out of that job boom! into another one really quickly. Everything just like lined up. It was one of those work rituals that like ended up working really well with the intention. So when I had that conversation with her, she said, “What do you see” and I said I see a shame piñata…” and nobody's gonna have that podcast name.
Venegoni: That's true. It's a very unique and memorable name. Yeah. Was there anything inside the shame piñata?
Thomas: Yeah, I had filled it with my favorite candy. And just as a side note on that was that I had, in my spirit of wanting everybody to get something out of their ritual, I had bought a separate set of little tabletop piñatas, these little tiny ones and I had asked my four friends who were participating in the ritual… I didn't want to tell them I was sending them a piñata, but I said, “What small thing do you like? What would be a nice small thing for you?” And one person wanted like bubbles that you blow out of a little tiny, you know, like in a wedding bubbles? One person wanted puzzle pieces. One person had told me some candy. So I stuffed these tiny little piñatas with whatever they wanted and I sent them off to them. And then I said, “Listen, you're getting this piñata, here’s this piñata. Everybody was to write something on their piñata that they want to let go of. And so then after I did my piñata, everybody did their own piñata.
Venegoni: Nice.
Thomas: We got to witness everybody you know, release a little something... because there's always something to release!
Venegoni: So where can listeners find the Shame Piñata Podcast?
Thomas: Anyplace you get your podcasts, it should be there. Very, very wide distribution, and definitely iTunes, Spotify, and then you can go to shamepinata.com
Venegoni: And they can also find you on Instagram, right?
Thomas: Yes, thank you Instagram and Facebook, mostly Instagram. And Twitter.
Venegoni: Yeah. Well, we'll have those links in the show notes. Well, Colleen, thank you for being here and chatting about ritual and initiation and change and release and power with me. It's been a pleasure.
Thomas: It has been Thank you so much, Nick.
Venegoni: To find the resources we discussed today, find the show notes at the queer spirit.com and if you enjoyed the show, remember to subscribe rate and review on iTunes. This will help us reach and support more queer people all over. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
You’re listening to a special edition of the Shame Piñata podcast featuring a recent episode of The Queer Spirit Podcast. I'm very happy to have the opportunity to share this conversation with you. If you are not already subscribed to The Queer Spirit Podcast, you can find it on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts. You can also find the show on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. See the show notes for links.
And now, as promised, here’s a quick preview of what’s coming up on Shame Piñata in the next few months. Upcoming episodes will focus on reinventing ourselves, going deeper, everyday magic, releasing cords with a parent, and disability as initiation.
Our music is by Terry Hughes. If you like the show, please visit https://ratethispodcast.com/shamepinata. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.
