S5 E7 Insights Into Rites of Passage

Episode Summary

Imagine navigating the journey of life with the power of ritual in your hand. From births and weddings to grief and personal growth, each change shapes who we are. Today we reflect on five seasons of conversations with ritual makers and look at how they have used the tool of ritual to heal, grow, and transform.

Episode Resources

→ Rites of Passage Episode Archive: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage

→ Share Your Story: https://ever-changing.net/contact

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Imagine navigating the journey of life with the power of ritual in your hand. From births and weddings to grief and personal growth, each change shapes who we are. Today we reflect on five seasons of conversations with ritual makers and look at how they have use the tool of ritual to heal, grow, and transform. 

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. 

Now that we are in our fifth season, it’s time to do a little reflecting. We’ve had the opportunity to speak with many ritual makers over the years and today we’re launching a 4-episode series to reflect on the insights we’ve gained. First, Rites of Passage, then Authentic Weddings, then Grief & Loss, and finally Challenging Times. Today we begin with Rites of Passage.

When Shame Piñata was still in development, I crowd-sourced a list of life transitions and I’d like to share a bit of it with you. In reviewing it, I noticed that about two thirds of the responses were situations that are out of our control. Leaving only one third that are in our control. Now, I’m not sure if this percentage represents the actual breakdown of typical lifetime of events or if it’s just that the tougher ones grab our attention more. The mind, after all, looks for problems to solve as a way of helping us stay safe. 

In the “Things that Happen To Us” column we have a few categories. The first is life stages. These are things most of us go through if we live long enough, such as our birth, and the annual celebration of it, the first day of school, first friend, first enemy, first love, going through puberty, leaving our childhood home for college or another destination, creating some kind of family of our own, losing our grandparents or other older relatives, losing our parents or caregivers, becoming a caregiver for someone we love, planning for our own passing. 

We may also go through physical changes throughout our lifetimes such as menarche,  pregnancy, miscarriage, menopause, illness, surgery, and the healing that follows

And things can change within our relationships as well. Children may move out of the house. We may lose touch with someone we love for reasons beyond our control. We might lose someone from whom we are estranged. And then there’s pets… don’t get me started on pets. Pets are a commitment that oftentimes brings a knowledge up front that we will need to say goodbye long before we are ready. You get the idea… things happen. And they can for all the world seem like they are happening to us. But sometimes looking back, we might notice that we wouldn’t be where we are now without them. They are, perhaps, an important part of who we are.   

Flipping to the other side, let’s consider some of the life changes that are more likely to be our own choice - not all of them easy. Some ideas in this category include: choosing where we want to study and/or work, learning to drive, the first trip out of our neighborhood or country, picking a religious or spiritual community that aligns with our own beliefs, exploring and embodying our gender identity and attraction to others, getting married or committed, choosing how to raise our children, going back to work (or not) after having kids, choosing how to handle our fertility in general, working diligently to master a new skill, leaving an abusive relationship, getting out of debt, reaching an investment goal, and choosing when and how we might retire. 

That’s a lot of potential life changes! So what do these changes do on the practical, everyday level? They may change our environment, our rhythm, our planning, our relationships to others, and, if we’re honest, our relationship to ourselves. They may not start out as a means of personal growth, but they can easily become just that. As we experience losses and setbacks, we can evaluate them, seek their meaning, and use them to grow. As we make it through hard times, we learn to trust our strength and resilience.

Each of these kinds of transitions is important and each is worthy of honoring. Each time you do something you never thought you could do, I honor that for you. And each time you go through a significant loss, I honor that for you as well. The honoring is the part that ritual serves. It’s that moment of saying, “This is important. I have changed in an important way because of this event and I would like to honor that by having a ceremony” - or perhaps asking someone to organize a ceremony for you (yes, you’re allowed to do that, by the way! I did it on the 10th anniversary of my father’s death).  

As a ritualist, I break down ceremonies into three categories that I call “Significant Moments”, “Reinventing Ourselves” and “The Deep Dive”. All of the examples we just explored fall into the “Significant Moments” category. These are moments when we have changed on a fundamental level, either through something happening to us or making the change ourselves. Ritual can be especially useful when we come across a significant moment that is deeply personal, especially perhaps, when it’s something that the people around us can’t relate to. For example, if everyone in the neighborhood adores our golden retriever they may instinctually join us in grieving her loss after she passes, sharing comforting words and maybe even sending cards. But if we had a pet that no one really understood, perhaps a cat who was scared of other people, we might well find ourselves alone with the grief after that animal passes. Not alone as in no one gets why we’re sad after losing our cat, but alone in that others didn’t have the same loving experiences we did because that cat saved all of her love for us. It’s hard to feel alone. And it’s hard to hold strong feelings inside. Ritual can provide a container to both honor what is deeply personal and help us presence and release some of the emotional intensity. 

Ritual can also help us to reinvent ourselves if we feel the need for a reboot. This often instinctually happens after a significant event. How many times have you cut your hair, rearranged your living room, or made some other conscious change after a break-up? That rush of energy we get to take control after being “hard done by” is powerful. And it’s healing. It can be a type of ritual to counterbalance a sense of being out of control. I call these kinds of rituals “Reinventing Ourselves”. They can be tied to a significant event or just come to us out of the blue. Like when we just suddenly realize we don’t fit in our old skin anymore and we need a change. This can happen after we’ve gained a bit of perspective, perhaps through travel or a retreat, something that has taken us out of our usual habit patterns.

Finally, another type of ritual is what I call “The Deep Dive”. It’s reserved for those moments where we feel resourced enough to go, well, deep. Beyond the day to day, beyond life events, beyond breakups and other losses. Moments when we are willing to question who we are and why we are here. I’m talking about something along the lines of an all night vigil, a soul quest, something that makes room for deep healing and exploring what Spirit is calling us to do next. Again, Deep Dive rituals may be initiated by a significant event or we may just feel ready for them without understanding why. Deep dive rituals are great because deep work is best done with a container. What is a container? Well, the container is created by the very things we do to make it a sacred space. Things like setting aside dedicated time for the ceremony, going someplace we won’t be disturbed, opening the space with something intentional (casting a circle, reading a poem, lighting a candle), honoring that we are in a sacred space during the time of the ritual, and doing something to intentionally close the space at the end (opening the circle, dedicating the energy of the ritual to heal the world, blowing out the candle). These things might seem simple but they are powerful, because they tell our subconscious mind that we are moving into and then back out of an intentional time where we can drop more deeply into our truth. 

As mentioned at the top, we’ve been lucky enough to learn from several talented ritualists on this show. After the break, we’ll see what each of them had to teach us about the power of ritual for rites of passage.

[MUSIC]

If you enjoy Shame Piñata, consider checking out Everyday Magic for Ukraine. Everyday Magic for Ukraine is a totally different kind of show that invites you to grab an item and do a simple ritual for peace in Ukraine. Episodes are less than 10 minutes long with a focus on calming the nervous system and keeping your heart open. You can find Everyday Magic for Ukraine wherever you're listening to this podcast.

So let’s look a little more deeply now into rites of passage and what they can do for us. We’ll be hearing from some of our former guests as we go, starting with Betty Ray who shared these words when I asked her, "What is the benefit in creating our own ceremonies?”

Ray: I think that our 21st century culture has become so individualized that certain kinds of rites of passage, the generic thing, just don't resonate. And so the benefit of a personalized sort of self designed DIY rite of passage or ceremony, transition ceremony, is that it can be something that is deeply meaningful to you. And I don't think these work if they're not deeply meaningful to you. So I would argue that there is no reason to do this if it isn't personalized. It's really important that it be meaningful, and that it come from a place that has such heart and meaning that it can… that it does the sort of psychological lifting. When it is individualized, it's a creative process. It's really fun. It's really fun to think about what is the thing that nurtures me. It's really fun to think about what is the thing that I'm trying to heal. It's not fun - that's not fun. [LAUGHS] But it's healing. It's healthy to look at what is the thing that I want to let go of and how do I design something so that I can take back my power over this thing that has really hurt me or has humiliated me or that I want to leave behind.

So, personalization. Power. Fun. Hard work. Inner work. These are the types of things ritual can bring us. And as Betty pointed out in another part of that episode, ritual creates the container for these things. So it’s easier to drop into the deeper feelings we might be having when we know we have created a safe place to do that. 

So now let’s answer a few questions. Are rites of passage only for coming of age? Of course not. We keep growing and changing way past our teen years. In fact, Nick Venegoni conceptualizes life transitions as moments of initiation where we can level up. 

Venegoni: I think of initiations as these gateways that we have the opportunity to walk through and transform ourselves in our lives and those gateways hold power. You know, so it's a way to sort of step into, you know, a new experience of who you are. Whether that's like, “I'm no longer a child, I'm an adult now”. You know, whether that's through your gender, your sexuality, or your biology where you have an opportunity to really grow and step into a new level of power in terms of who you are in the world and carrying that forward in your life.

Another question: Do rites of passage need to be religious? Absolutely not. They can be religious, spiritual, or secular. It’s always your choice. The important thing is the reverence for the transition that is being honored. There are some rites of passage that are handled within a religious context. Here’s Tina Torres on the power of baptism in the Christian tradition:

Torres: It's just really exciting. And really, the person being baptized, it's very, super… there's, when you come up out of the water, there's this kind of sense of euphoria and spiritual exultation. You know what I'm saying? It's very, it's a very powerful experience. Very powerful.

Personalized rites of passage can also be created for use in place of traditional religious ceremonies. April Cantor created a special ceremony with her son after it became clear that he did not want to have a bar mitzvah.

Cantor: …and that being said, my husband and I both agreed, you still need some sort of rite of passage, like that's important that… you know, this is your time. Let's… let's figure out something we don't know what that looks like yet, but this still calls for some sort of rite of passage. And that's how it started.

Rites of passage can also be completely separate from religion, which can make them unique and interesting. Nikole Lent describes that aspect of her Welcome to Womanhood ceremony in which the elders in her community welcomed her to womanhood.

Lent: I was the only person that I knew that had had something like that aside from, you know, friends that had ceremonies related to religion or cultural background, be it a bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah, quinceañera or things of that nature. But as far as like a non-religious based rite of passage ceremony, I was the only person that I knew that had experienced such a thing. So my friends were really curious and excited and intrigued by that.

Next question: What is the benefit of community in ritual? Of the witness? Why not just honor our life transitions alone? While some rituals are best done alone, the availability of community  gives us the opportunity to shower the individual with our love and hopes and wisdom. Kind of like how we give a new couple a blender when they get married, but in this case it can be something deeper. Nikole’s mother Susan describes the gifts she asked of the women she invited to Nikole’s Welcome to Womanhood ceremony.

Burgess-Lent: it would be in the form of something that was symbolic. And they could read a poem, or they could play some music, or they could dance or they could have an object, it didn't matter. I left it up to them.

Thomas: And what were some of the gifts that showed up?

Lent: I can speak to that, because I still have many of them. [LAUGHS] One was this gorgeous woven… very intricately woven, basket that our friend had made by hand. And I've used it for so many things over the years and it's held strong for... yeah, pretty much like 15…17 years at this… at this point. And another friend gave me Joni Mitchell's album "Blue". She wrote a card that said something like, "These songs are tattoos on my soul and have been with me for like, you know, profound moments in my life. And I hope that they can be there for you the way that they worked for me." And I listened... that album was like... it was like a friend to lean on. There was also the crown... I wore a crown, like, it was like kind of a bramble and with flowers, you know, while I was in the middle of this ceremony, and that... It just felt like an honor to be celebrated and cherished, and that was a symbol of that. A lot of precious, thoughtful, deliberate offerings. 

Ritual can also help us deal with the bigger losses we might come across as we grow up. Personalized ceremonies can help us take the reins back and begin to heal our hearts. Megan Sheldon turned to ritual to help her make sense of invisible loss. 

Sheldon: And shortly after our wedding, we tried to get pregnant and we did. And, you know, seven weeks later, we miscarried. And then we got pregnant again and miscarried. And a third time, miscarried. And each time it was like this invisible loss that nobody knew. It was just, I mean… this was seven years ago. So it was just starting to kind of get a little bit more traction in terms of the media and people talking about it a little bit more, but nobody was talking about a ceremony where I could honor and say goodbye. I was never even offered any of the remains from the hospitals after my D&C procedures. So I started to create my own rituals around my loss. And my husband, Johan and I, we created our own rituals and ceremonies to acknowledge not only the loss of life, but also the loss of the stories we'd started to tell ourselves. I had a lot of growing anxiety. What was happening? Why was my body doing this? Will I ever get pregnant? You know, it was in my mid to late 30s at that point, so that… you know, there was this time pressure that was both external and internal. Yeah, I think that time for me it was really about learning how these things that I naturally wanted and needed did in my life were rituals. It was ceremony. It was, you know… I wanted to sit with my girlfriends and not only share my story, but hear their story. I wanted to, you know, every year on a due date or on a loss date, I wanted to have something that I could do that would connect me so that I wouldn't forget that I wouldn't grow… grow further away from it. 

[MUSIC]

Ritual can also help us make sense of things that happened a long time ago. I think people might not realize this. I shared an important example with Erica Sodos in our episode on Blood Magic. We were discussing menarche, or first blood, ceremonies.

Sodos: Say a woman is seventy so she hasn't bled for a while. She could still celebrate her first moon time? 

Thomas: Yeah, sure…

Sodos: Really? Even though she's already been through all these different cycles in her life. And I guess, I guess you're saying you can do it, you feel that you can do a rite of passage whenever, like even if it was a while ago?

Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it has a different effect, I think, than doing it at the moment. But I believe that ritual transcends space and time and I've been in a post… a retroactive menarche ceremony with one of my blood mothers who got a big room of 30 women together who were all  not 12 or 13, it was all for grown women to go back and connect to the moment of the, you know, the Maiden. And it was, it was just transformational and so I know that it can transcend space and time. It helps if you have a really good ritual practitioner can who can run it for you.

Sodos: That sounds like magic. Like I'm feeling that… that you… Well, that's the same idea like when I was in therapy and the therapist would have me go back to an experience from when I was little and say, you know, I was attacked, or my parents were out of control or whatever and then she would be like, “Who would protect you?” And then I did all these meditations where there was this bear… this mama bear would come and like took me away until all the fighting was still going on, but the mother was… And I think that that's that same idea. It's like almost like neural… changing the neuroplasticity in the brain, right? 

Thomas: Right.

Sodos: I mean, you're going back. And you're reclaiming this experience, and then you kind of recreated it and then in a way the timeline changes. Right? Did you feel for you and other women like the timeline changes?

Thomas: Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Like the historical events that happened in my life when I did really get my blood when I was 12 didn't change but yet the part of me… the 12 year-old who's always living in me now has had a very different experience… had like the original experience and then had this other amazing experience which kind of weaves together.

Sodos: So you became more whole, in a way. 

Thomas: Exactly.

Sodos: Because that 12 year-old who grew up who was fractured or whatever you want to say never truly connected to her power or whatever it was. But now she's had a different timeline within you, so it makes you different now, is that kind of…

Thomas: Exactly. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. 

A similar story was shared by Thom on our episode about coming out as a rite of passage.

Thom: I turned 50 a year ago. I just had my 51st birthday but a part of my 50th birthday... we did a ceremony, sort of a... like a power-retrieval type ceremony where we did go back and look... heal like specific woundings from when I was younger so that all of that energy would then collapse into the present and I would then move forward into this next part of my life without that energetic disturbance or that energetic attractor, if you will. And so that was a situation where it wasn't specifically related to coming out because I didn't have any coming out wounding, but we did do a ceremony where we went back to deal with a past, you know, scenario and then heal that in the present and that was really eye-opening and amazing and don't know why I never thought of it before.

Thom’s story gives a great example of how to use ritual as a tool, a tool we can use to move into the future we want to claim for ourselves. 

So how are you leveling up? What future are you claiming for yourself? And where do you find yourself among the many examples we touched on today? Are you dealing with something that has recently happened to you? Are you on the milestone of a significant moment that’s unique to your experience? How are you ready to reinvent yourself? Or, are you perhaps ready to take the deep dive? Wherever you are, I honor that place for you. I honor you and your unique and sacred path. Is there a ritual that would be heaving for you? Maybe it’s time to revisit the past and transform it. Maybe you are ready to take a deep dive.

We look forward to sharing more rites of passage stories with you in upcoming episodes. We might even be able to share your story if you have one to tell. Reach  us through shamepinata dot com. You can hear more from each of the guests you heard from today in our show archive. Check the show notes for a link to our collection of episodes on Rites of Passage.

Our music is by Terry Hughes. Find us on YouTube, IG and X at shamepinata. Reach us through our website, shamepinata dot com. And subscribe to the show on your favorite player. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

P.S. Get up to 2 months of free podcasting service with Libsyn. Check out the show notes for your promo code to get started podcasting today.

S5 E6 The Emergence Ceremony (April Cantor)

Episode Summary

How can we honor our youth as they come of age in ways that are strengthened by tradition and also allow their unique spark to shine? What would happen if we let them tell us what they need and co-created ceremony with them? Join us as we hear the story of the Emergence Ceremony that bridged into a powerful transformation for the entire family.

Episode Resources

→ SoulShine Life with April: https://soulshinelife.com/

→ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/soulshinelifeyoga

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Cantor: …for sure like every once in a while, like they’ll say, “Oh God! I would love something like that too.” In fact, right afterwards my mom, you know my Catholic mom, she was like, “I want an emergence too!” And she’s like turning 75 this year so we’re going to give it to her!

How can we honor our youth as they come of age in ways that are strengthened by tradition and also allow their unique spark to shine? What would happen if we let them tell us what they need and co-created ceremony with them? Join us as we hear the story of the Emergence Ceremony that bridged into a powerful transformation for the entire family. 

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Today we are lucky enough to be joined by April Cantor. April is a gifted ritual leader and a gifted mom. She is here to share a story with us, a story of growth, a story of change, a story of emergence. It centers around one weekend in which a planned ceremony unfolded into an unplanned ceremony, both of which turned out to be part of a larger whole. So join me in taking a breath and centering in your heart as we travel back in time to that weekend.

Cantor: Imagine a beautiful clearing with grass that's just been fed by a misty morning light fall of rain. And these tall trees that were like, you know, these beautiful sisters and brothers of the forest that we were in. It's just the backyard, but it's just this gorgeous clearing. And they were… they created this beautiful cathedral space, this natural cathedral. And within this clearing was a circle of family and friends. And in the center of that circle of celebration was my son who was turning 13 at the time. And we were celebrating what we were calling his emergence so we called it an Emergence Ceremony. And he had actually chosen this particular town because it was a town that is known for its inclusivity. He identifies as gay but also gender… I'm probably gonna get this wrong, but… not just gender fluid but all-inclusive, right? Like he’s like a he and a she, and it doesn’t matter which one, it’s like whatever you see him as. And this particular place in Pennsylvania... so it's like New Hope, Pennsylvania… we found this, this house that we can invite everyone to. And in this ceremony,we just celebrated his crossing over the threshold from adolescence up from childhood into adolescence, in his own beautiful, special way. So that… that was that was… the that's the setting for that weekend.

Thomas: Can I ask, was the ceremony his idea? Was it your idea? Did you come up with it together?

Cantor: We created it together. It was definitely a collaborative process. And that was important to all of us, that it was a group effort. 

Ezra had been following his older brother through Hebrew school with the goal of reaching his bar mitzvah. While the process had gone smoothly for his brother, for Ezra it has been a continual struggle. He had tried to tell his parents many times that he didn’t want to go to Hebrew school, because he just didn’t feel like he belonged there. But continuing the Jewish tradition and lineage was very important to his father. Finally, he was at the finish line with only one last year to go. 

Cantor: This was when he approached me and said, “Mom, I'm not… I'm not going through it, I do not want to do this bar mitzvah. It's not who I am. And it's not an expression of me.” And I just sort of like, I heard him. You know, my heart really heard him and I knew that he would have to tell his dad who would be really disappointed. And he also knew that too. But you know, when I prepared my husband, I said, like, “Just… when he tells you what he's going to tell you just really listen, like, Listen with your heart as what he's saying.” And so once he got the message from our son, it was a bit of a relief. You know, I think that's what my husband would say. It's like, there was a relief to it of like, all right, right? We're not struggling anymore. And we heard them and we're like, “Okay.” So we all took a deep breath. And thanked him, and then of course, informed the family because we also knew it was important to his grandparents, right. And I think to most Jewish people, it's important, right, that we have some sort of lineage that keeps this tradition up. But because we're such a tight family, too, we also want to honor just the growth of family and the growth of the individual on their own personal journey. And that being said, my husband and I both agreed, you still need some sort of rite of passage, like that's important that… you know, this is your time. Let's… let's figure out something we don't know what that looks like yet, but this still calls for some sort of rite of passage. And that's how it started.

Thomas: Wow, that phrase really, really caught me when you said my heart heard him. Because there's so many conversations we can have with people where the communication does not actually get down that far and drop into our hearts because there's so much… so many other levels at which we operate.

Cantor: Yeah, and think about all the times that we had not really heard him for all those years.

And the struggle, yeah. 

Thomas: And that he persevered. So… I wish that for all… all youth to persevere and so till others can… can really hear.

Cantor: Yeah.

Ezra spent the summer preparing for the ceremony. He engaged in spiritual study, put energy toward a service project, and created and made it through a significant personal challenge. The entire family was looking forward to being there to celebrate him on the day of his official emergence. But out of the blue, the family learned that Ezra’s grandpa on his father’s side wouldn’t be able to come because of health issues. His not being there was a huge deal for the family. Everyone was devastated. April knew that she had to hold space for this additional piece, this loss for the entire family. So she began to gather resources to help her honor both things at once - the joy and the grief. And in her search, she came upon a Shame Piñata and heard our episode called “Inviting Grief to the Wedding”.

Cantor:  I just was blown away, I was like, “Oh, this is exactly what I was looking for!” And just hearing your voice was so encouraging… And then, I mean… in one in particular, this one episode you did, I'm forgetting the person that was a wedding planner and they had talked about including grief as part of the celebration ceremony and it was such a powerful episode.That was super helpful, just hearing that particular episode.

Thomas: How did you weave those together on the day?

Cantor: The morning of the whole ceremony, right? We're talking like it happened on a Saturday. Early that morning, we got a call. And it was a call from my mother-in-law and through tears, she had mentioned that they had to move him into hospice. And we all knew what that meant. And it was hard, you know? It was just a really profound moment. There was crying. There was also doubt about: Should we continue with this? Should we just cancel this? Do we need to fly out today? You know, there's all these questions about what do, we have all these people here. And it was so clear from the discussion with my mother-in-law and father-in-law, who was coherent at the time, they were like, “You must continue this journey for your son. It is imperative that you continue this ceremony. We want you to continue it.” And then… “Please have it. And then whenever you can, like as soon as possible, make it down.” Right? So we went through it. We did it. We just kind of, like, gathered everything we could as far as like just our composure, just adrenaline kicked in. And then we just sort of, like, went through as if, you know, we had to just sort of compartmentalize that for a little bit and then just say, “This is what's happening. Thank you for everyone just holding space for us. We're going to continue with this. But we're also going to hold space for this other thing that's happening.” So when I greeted everyone in the… into circle, and by the way, those who were present were just intimate, close family members. My son made it clear that he did not want a huge Bar Mitzvah the way that his older brother had had, that he really just wanted, like his grandparents there, his aunts and uncles, some close family, friends, and then his, his crew… his crew. And so there was, you know, us in a circle in this beautiful place. And once we had that little procession in, with our drums and our shakers, we greeted each other. And then I proceeded to ask everyone to just hold their hearts for a moment and take a deep breath in. And to breathe in all the joy that we're feeling. And then to also acknowledge the fact that there are some important people that weren't able to join us here in circle. But we know that just by connecting our hearts out to them and sending our deep breaths that we might encourage deeper breaths wherever they are, and to welcome in… them into our space as if they were here. Because we know in spirit that they are. And any of the grief, any of the pain that we are feeling at this moment, we could just honor it, feel it, just give us ourselves a chance to cry about it if we want at this moment. And whatever's coming ahead of time, we don't know. But we can also just be present with what is. And let's put this grief in a little boat on a river that's just gently, you know, if we use our imaginations just flowing beautifully behind us to hold this space for us, we can let it drift on this little boat, and we can pick it up down the shore a little bit but let it take its own journey while we hold the space for celebration. For as much as we can feel this pain, we can also hold the same amount of joy. And that's that was the wish we know… from directly from Jack and Mimi, this is what they wanted. So that's how we said it and I would not have had that language had I not listened to Shame Piñata.

Thomas: Oh my goodness. I was just thinking how incredibly beautiful it is the way that you put that and was brought tears to my eyes just just to… just such a deep honoring of, of, of life, that is grief and joy and our capacity to be able to drop into both. Thank you so much for sharing those words with us today. 

Cantor: My pleasure.

[MUSIC]

It's wonderful to have you here! If you’re inspired by the topics we cover, consider sharing your story about how you marked an important life transition. You can do that by sending us a message through our website Shame Piñata dot com. And thanks. 

Cantor: So the ceremony happened. It was amazing. We had set that space and woven into that some wisdom sharings, right, with everyone. You know, the grandparents, at least my parents, were there. They gave their their part. Aunts and uncles and the friends even were asked to like… what are… what are the things that you want to tell Ezra, you know, that is his, like something that you feel like he needs to know at this time. Right? That's… that was the basic question. And then everyone got to share. Because it was important that it wasn't just led by me right that this ceremony was an expression of how we all have the capacity to hold space. We all have the capacity to let our hearts be listened to. And then we all have the capacity to share wisdom. We also did some sort of like, you know, there's always… It's not a good ritual without some sort of like, sacred drama, right? So we we put him… we wrapped him in this like butcher paper. So he's like literally in a cocoon. And you know, we were like “Okay, so here's Ezra…” Like he had to go through this transformation from this little caterpillar into his now chrysalis, but he's ready to come out. And of course, like the great song, the “I'm Coming Out” song was what I played. 

Thomas: Amazing. Wow. [LAUGHS]

Cantor: But before that happened, like he was… We were drumming and we were like, the song is one of those songs that you might hear a lot in circle, which is like “I'm opening up to the sweet surrender to luminous love light of the One.” And just like letting him struggle a little bit in this really wrapped cocoon that he's in and then to eventually like little by little in his own way he starts to like break out of it. [LAUGHS] And then his… we had entrusted some of his aunties to become his fairy godmothers. And they gave him his wings. So he… literally we bought like these Isis wings that light up and so he got to, like, wear that and then like he flew around the circle and was just this like… just this beautiful, expansive butterfly just flying around the circle and giving high fives to everybody. [LAUGHS] And it was just such a celebration that we could still have all of that, you know, in this very encapsulated moment of time. Like we knew it was special when the photographer who was really only supposed to be there for a certain amount of time, like literally just expanded his time there. And he kept saying, Thank you, thank you for inviting me to this space. I know I witnessed something really special.

[MUSIC]

After the ceremony happened, the family raced back to be with Ezra’s grandfather for his last moments. They arrived about two or three hours before his passing. He had waited for them.

Cantor: And that was the night of the big eclipse two years ago. And I know we’ve just finished one big eclipse portal just recently, but like, wow, it’s so… Things happening on such an astrological level really like it was as if this was a huge portal of time, of literally combing through some new part of ourselves. I was so grateful to have had that… It's almost like the ceremony expanded into that space. So from that larger circle, we had the smaller circle, where we were gathered around his bedside in the hospital. And just you know, having breaths with him, we were able to tell him how much we loved him and give him a you know, a recap of what happened at the ceremony. We were even able to get his little thumbprint on this like family tree thing that we did every collected everyone's thumb prints on so his thumb prints on there. And then he shed one last tear, took his last breath. And while we were holding his hand or at some part of his body, we… you know, witnessed his last breath. And that was it, right like that was… there was silence and then crying. And then I just remember the bright moon outside once we had to leave the hospital. But it all felt whole in some way. So glad that he waited for us.

Thomas: And that's, that's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Cantor: Thank you for hearing that. And so right, ceremonies can be big and they can be small.

Thomas: And they can be planned out and they can be instantaneous. 

Cantor: Yep. Yeah. 

Thomas: Well, I'm so grateful to you for sharing the story with us because I think we all need more examples that could potentially spark, “Oh, wow, that or that little aspect of that… that's exactly what I'm looking for right now!” So thank you.

Cantor: Thank you Colleen, seriously. 

Thank you for being with us today to hear this story. It’s so important to make room for all of the layers of life that often overlap in real time. When we honor that richness, we create room for our full selves. And when our full selves are invited, who knows what will happen? So, how are you emerging right now? And how might you like to celebrate that emergence?

April Cantor is a certified yoga & mindfulness teacher and modern-day priestess. Through her company SoulShine Life she holds sacred space for children, women and men to cultivate a curious & kind relationship with Self, Community, Land & Source. For guidance in creating your own Emergence Ceremony you can contact April through her website at www.SoulShineLIfe.com or directly through Instagram @SoulShineLifeYoga

Our music is by Terry Hughes. Find us on YouTube, IG and X at shamepinata. Reach us through our website, shamepinata dot com. And subscribe to the show on your favorite player. Also be sure to check out Everyday Magic for Ukraine, our ongoing series of 10-minute meditations that support you as you support Ukraine. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening. 

P.S. Get up to 2 months of free podcasting service with Libsyn. Check out the show notes for your promo code to get started podcasting today.

S5 E5 Baptism as a Rite of Passage (Tina Torres)

Episode Summary

Being part of a religious or spiritual community can be a wonderful support in life. Shared customs and traditions can bring comfort, connection, and a shared experience of the Divine. But what role does ritual play in all of this and how does it help us connect to the Divine? Join us for an exploration of Baptism as a Rite of Passage - from both sides of the pulpit.

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on Apple Podcasts | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Torres: This is a public demonstration of what's actually happened already in them, that they have  recognized Christ and received forgiveness. 

Thomas: So the person had their experience with Christ in their own self and then chooses to have the Baptism sacrament and is publicly...

Torres: Right. It's a public testimony. Yes, public witness.

Being part of a religious or spiritual community can be a wonderful support in life. Shared customs and traditions can bring comfort, connection, and a shared experience of the Divine. But what role does ritual play in all of this and how does it help us connect to the Divine?

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. We often speak about using ritual as a tool for personal transformation, but today we’ll will focus our attention on the use of ritual within one particular religion: Christianity. This journey will actually take us through several traditions within Christianity to explore how they feel about ritual and how they use it. Two of the rituals we will delve into today the most deeply are baptism and communion. If you are familiar with Christian traditions, especially Protestant ones, you will most likely have had some kind of exposure to one or both of these rituals. If you’re new to them, then you’ll have a chance to learn all about them today.

Joining us for our conversation is friend of the podcast Tina Torres. And when I say friend of the podcast, I mean long-term friend of the podcast. Tina has been one of Shame Piñata’s main cheerleaders ever since day one - and this conversation is one that she and I have been meaning to have for almost that long. 

As a bit of background on where I’m coming from as the interviewer today, I grew up in Christianity but never fully felt I understood it, so I’ve been grateful to speak with Tina over the years about her lifetime of experience, including cross-cultural experience, withшт the Christian tradition.

Rituals within the Christian tradition are often called sacraments. Here’s a definition from Britannica: Sacrament: Religious sign or symbol, especially associated with Christian churches, in which a sacred or spiritual power is believed to be transmitted through material elements viewed as channels of divine grace. At the start of our conversation, Tina gave me the lay of the land on how the various denominations are related to one another and how they each feel about the concept of sacraments. 

Torres: Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox are very… we'd call it ritualistic. They have a lot of ritual. They actually have seven sacraments. They have infant baptism, confirmation, communion, matrimony, reconciliation, holy orders, and last rites. And Protestant have two. They only have communion and baptism. Mainstream… mainstream would be like Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Anglicans in the UK. And then among the evangelicals, you have Baptist, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, and also many independent churches that are non-denominational.

Thomas: Got it. So it sounds like there's a distinction between mainstream…

Torres: …and evangelical, yes. So Protestantism is very… it's a big umbrella. So you’ve got your mainstream who tend to be more… well, let's just say more ritualistic. And then your evangelical is less. They don't have prescribed prayers… There's more of a formal order in the Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian than the evangelicals. The evangelicals are more free-form. 

Thomas: So is it true that we get sort of less prescribed or less formatted or ritualistic as we go from Catholicism to mainstream to evangelical?

Torres: That’s right. Exactly. Yep.

Thomas:: Okay, I'm getting the… I'm getting the pattern.

Torres: …gettin’ the drift here, yeah. And then you also have the other kind of main group would be, for instance, the Society of Friends, the Quakers, and the Anabaptists. This is regarding sacraments. They believe the two sacraments are merely reminders or commendable practices, but they do not import actual grace. They call them ordinances. So they don't give them the spiritual significance that your mainstream and your evangelicals do.

Thomas: That's interesting. 

Torres: Yeah, it is interesting. There's a lot of history here too. [LAUGHS]

Thomas: A lot of history. 

Torres: And very interesting too, because in some cases, the sacraments: baptism and communion, have been the causes of almost civil wars in Protestantism, which is kind of crazy. I studied that… I got that in seminary and you know, in a Christian history course. And it's like, how is that possible? You know, the Anabaptists are very vehemently against baptism and so they do not commune with the Baptists or the Presbyterians. Anabaptist also would be like Mennonite.

Thomas: Interesting.

Torres: A fascinating subject isn't? To me it is. [LAUGHS]

Thomas: Well then what makes something a sacrament? 

Torres: I found a definition by St. Augustine of Hippo. He was from Africa, Northern Africa. He called it “An outward sign of an inward grace that was instituted by Jesus Christ”. So it's an outward sign of an inward reality. 

Thomas: And is that a definition that you would use yourself or that you… that resonates for you? 

Torres: It does, it does because it's something that you do. It's symbolic, it's a ritual. But you know, for instance, in baptism, in adult baptism, the adult is between two other people, and that the person is dunked, you know, into the water which symbols their old life and then they go into the water of spirit and then they come up to their new life when they come up out of the water. 

Thomas: Nice. 

Torres: Yeah, it is. It's beautiful. It's very moving. 

[MUSIC]

Thanks so much for being here! Shame Piñata is here to encourage and inspire you. Please consider supporting our work by rating and reviewing the show in your favorite podcast player. This is a wonderful way to support the show because it helps people discover us who could benefit. If you’ve never actually written a podcast review before, no worries! Go to shamepinata dot com and we’ll walk you through it. Just click on “Rate this Podcast”.

So as you can see, there is a wide variety in how sacraments are utilized within different traditions. And those differences kind of denote how these groups are different from one another. So let’s look now at what it’s like to live and breathe within these communities. Tina is the perfect guide because she’s lived and worked within a wide variety of Christian traditions, beginning as a child in her family’s church that in her words was “sort of fundamentalist, sort of Baptist”. And then on into her time in Mexico when she was part of an Evangelical non-denominational community. And later in life when she attended a Presbyterian seminary, and becoming a pastor, and up to today when she’s part of a small home church that meets informally. I asked her to walk me through her journey.

Torres: Well, looking back, and to many years, I believe God was leading me into different areas. And so, you know, for quite… from when I was about 18 to 30. I was in a prodigal stage. So I did not go to church at all. I rejected it totally. And then had kind of a spiritual crisis when I was 30 and realized that… I needed God, and I needed forgiveness. And because I was, I was kind of a mess. I was depressed, I was drinking. And then, at one point, I said, you know, I just can't go on like this. And I started to remember and I thought, you know, maybe, maybe that God thing is not not so bad. Maybe I better check it out again. So I did. And that was when I actually called on God, asked for forgiveness and felt that I had been forgiven and felt the presence of Christ. And I was about 30 at that time. So it's been since then. Yeah, it was, it was dramatic. It was... So it's kind of the difference between following when I was a kid, you know, they tell you to do this, go to Sunday school, go to church, learn the verses, learn this… And I did all that, but it kind of was in the head. It was all in the head, not in my heart. It was a long journey, many years. And so I was baptized in Mexico, probably around age 30, I think. 

Thomas: Had you been baptized also as a child? 

Torres: No, because in the non-denominational group, they did not believe in infant baptism. They would do baby dedications, but there was no baptism, there was no oil, there was no water sprinkling or anything. It was just praying to dedicate the parents, dedicate to bringing up the child - which is a good thing. But it wasn't a ritual let's put it that way. I was brought up in a non ritualistic… and this is funny too, because I was brought up in that context where they said, “Oh no, written prayers. You know, they don't really mean anything because it's not… it's not  spontaneous.” So there was a kind of a Christianity and had ritual involved to it. They thought that was less sincere than the freewheeling non-denominational, if that makes sense. God brought me or I ended up at the Presbyterian Church. I really like the ritualistic I really like the reverence. I like the… I like the rituals! And there definitely are rituals in the Presbyterian Church. And so they do infant baptism. They do, of course, adult baptism, and communion is taken very seriously. They believe that something… and I believe something… really happens when you take the bread and the wine. Whereas the group that I was brought up with, they said, “Oh, yeah, we'll do communion. But it's just… it doesn't… nothing really happens. It's just kind of a memorial thing. It's, you know, remembering, but nothing really happens.” And I'm like… [makes doubting noise] I guess I guess I wasn't convinced or I didn't know. But later in the Presbyterian, I understand that something does happen when you take communion. Yeah. It's very interesting. 

Thomas: You've been the one doing that communion, right, as the pastor.  

Torres: That's right. Yeah. As a pastor, I did. Yes. Mm hmm. Yeah. And actually, you know, home church, they asked me… I'm the one who… who does… presides over the communion when we do it once a month, the first Sunday of the month. And I have a shawl from Mexico that they use, and they like that, they say… Because one time I said, “Well, here's my shawl, but I don't want to stand out as being different for everybody else.” And they said, “No, use it. We like it. It adds to the whole communion thing.” So I said, “Okay, fine.”

Thomas: Right. And in the doing of a sacred ritual like that, it's nice to have, you know, have it be a special moment have somebody wearing a special something… because I feel like that's what's so beautiful about ritual is that we can… we can drink a coffee because we're drinking coffee or we can make it a moment where we are remembering our grandmother who used to drink this coffee, and maybe we will put out, you know, the tablecloth that the grandmother made…

Torres: Yes, exactly…. and the china. That is true. I'm getting to like rituals more under your influence, Colleen, and it's very good. [LAUGHS]

Thomas: They allow us to have that moment of the numinous…

Torres: …specilaness. It's not an ordinary moment. 

Thomas: Right. 

Torres: Not an ordinary moment. Right. 

Thomas: Exactly. 

Torres: And it can mark a certain passage or something, things like that, too. Like baptism is a huge one.

Thomas: Totally. So you've done baptisms also, haven’t you?

Torres: I have. Yes, I have. In a river, Sacramento River, we did we did one there. You can do it also in a swimming pool. People have done that, you know, any body of water, but a river is kind of nice, you know. Some people do it in a spa kind of thing. But I like the river. I like the the nature…the natural water, body of water. 

Thomas: Absolutely. And I'm just curious if you have any reflections on how it's been to be on, like quote unquote, the other side of those rituals as the one performing them. 

Torres: It's very exciting and it's important to be “prayed up” to use an expression… before. To make sure that I'm in a place… really, of close communion with God in order to do that. Because it's a big responsibility. Yeah, you're really doing something very meaningful, very spiritual and so you want to give it all the importance, all the time, all the preparation. And it's very exciting. It totally is. My first baptism I did was an adult baptism… was at Lake Tahoe. We were at a retreat, a church retreat, and there was another pastor there and myself and, and me. And so the two of us baptized several people at that time, a young man and his dad… maybe five or six people. And it is really neat, because you kind of start with prayer and then each person generally says something about their journey with God, a brief thing, testimony about how they met the Lord and how that changed their life. And then when you go into the baptism, it's a visual thing of the old life, and then you come up to the new life. So it's very beautiful. 

Thomas: As the leader of this ritual, the sacrament do you tell people who've just been baptized, like, you know, “Go home, drink a lot of water. Go home, pray for a week…” Like is there aftercare [LAUGHS] after a baptism?

Torres: Not as such. There's more preparation, meeting with the people before and saying, “This is what this means.” And asking them how their encounter with God and how it happened and what it meant so that they realized that this is a public demonstration of what's actually happened already in them, that they have  recognized Christ and received forgiveness. And this is a step of obedience because Jesus… when he told the disciples he told them to baptize, “Go ye into all the world baptizing and making disciples in the name of the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit”. So that is the… where Jesus institutes the baptism. 

Thomas: Got it. So the person had their experience with Christ in their own self and then chooses to have the Baptism s acrament and is publicly, with people bearing witness to the fact that they are making this choice, and… yeah, yeah.

Torres: Exactly. Right. It's a public testimony. Public witness. And it is very meaningful. And if you do it, it's interesting, outside - well it's best done outside at a, you know, by the river or something - and people will come over and say, “Hey, what's going on,” you know? So it kind of starts…. Sometimes people are curious about what's happening and it's just really exciting. And really, the person being baptized, it's very, super… there's, when you come up out of the water, there's this kind of sense of euphoria and spiritual exultation. You know what I'm saying? It's very, it's a very powerful experience. Very powerful. 

Thomas: Right. That's very beautiful. 

Torres: It is, it is. Yep.

Thomas: Well, thank you for sharing these insights and learnings and your wisdom and your journey with me today. 

Torres: No, thank you. It's a privilege!

I love that Tina was able to give us a look into communion and baptism, arguably the two most well known Protestant rituals, from both sides of the pulpit. And I hope you could hear her genuine excitement and joy at being part of religious community - transcendent of denomination. Over the coming week. I invite you to reflect on the definition she shared of sacrament as “an outward sign of an inner grace”. That’s pretty much what a ritual is, right? Something we do on the outside that signals a change we’ve made on the inside. How cool is that? 

Tina Torres spent seven years as the pastor of a Spanish-speaking congregation in West Sacramento. She is a Spanish-English translator and interpreter with a passion for languages and background in Mexican culture and customs. Our music is by Terry Hughes. Find us on YouTube, IG and X at shamepinata. Reach us through our website, shamepinata dot com. And subscribe to the show on your favorite player. Also be sure to check out Everyday Magic for Ukraine, short 10-minute weekly meditations that support you as you support Ukraine. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

P.S. Get up to 2 months of free podcasting service with Libsyn. Check out the show notes for your promo code to get started podcasting today.

S4 E5 Entrepreneurship as a Rite of Passage (Molly Mandelberg)

Episode Summary

Finding our right work can be a journey. In our life, we may have had many jobs, explored many paths. What might it feel like to live your passion, to bring your full self to your work? If you listen very carefully, is your heart actually telling you which way to go?

Episode Resources

 → Wild Hearts Rise Up: https://www.wildheartsriseup.com/

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Mandelberg: There's nothing about you that you've decided is true that you can't choose differently. If you're willing to get curious about all those decisions and conclusions you have about who you are or what you're capable of… curiosity is like the key to life.

Finding our right work can be a journey. In our life, we may have had many jobs, explored many paths. What might it feel like to live your passion, to bring your full self to your work? If you listen very carefully, is your heart actually telling you which way to go? 

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. There are so many rites of passage in our complex, multi-faceted lives. Birthdays, weddings, new jobs, relationships starting and ending. One rite of passage we haven’t spent much time on yet is finding our right work, starting a business venture that comes from the heart. 

You might already have such a business venture,or perhaps it’s something that sounds good but it’s miles away. If the latter is you, then you’re in luck. Today’s guest Molly Mandelberg is going to walk us through her story of becoming a coach and ritualist practitioner. I have to warn you that Molly’s enthusiasm is infectious. She is a very talented coach by nature and she will open up your mind and your heart to possibilities you didn’t even know existed. 

Thomas: I guess what I would ask you is…  would you take me into your story?

Mandelberg: Yeah, so one of the biggest transformations that I've gone through in my life was actually starting my business and stepping into more of a leadership role, I think, in my life. And while that was directly related to my clients, it also has spilled over into my relationships with my friends, my family, my communities that I've decided to partake in or involve myself with. And yeah… I wrote a whole book about this story of, kind of what I had to go through are the big turning points and lessons that I've learned, but who I was 10 years ago before ever starting my business was sheltered, and hiding… somebody actually used the term “hunted” about my energy once and I was kind of a prickly person, I was easily triggerable, I was very unconvinced of my self worth. I was kind of angry and hurt and had lots of trauma that was still unprocessed. 

And I think that we as humans often go through a transformational period around 29 to 32, during our Saturn Return anyway, but it happened that I started my business right before that Saturn Return. So there is this real big wave of personal development and personal growth and I've always been someone who is interested in the bigger picture of who I am in this body on this earth and what that really means. But it wasn't until my late 20’s when I started looking at, “Can I help people?”, and “Am I capable of doing that, of being a contribution in other people's lives? And do I want to make my life kinda about that by becoming a coach or holistic practitioner?” And there was a lot of stuff that came up to stop me. A lot of places where I thought, “I shouldn't. I can't. No one's gonna pay me for that,” or “I should just go back and get a j.o.b.” 

And through investing in mentorship and through taking the journey of really looking at what is that limiting belief and do I want to allow that to continue stopping me or do I want to choose something different now? Studying a bunch of different modalities of healing practices and techniques, and also really kind of for the first time in my life immersing myself in larger community and actually surrounding myself with people who are doing work similar to that of looking at the shadow and looking at what we desire and what we think is limiting us from getting there, from reaching for it, from actualizing that in our lives. Yeah, I've had some close friends who are on similar sort of parallel paths to mine, that believed in me before I believed in myself. They saw who I was becoming before I had an awareness of what that was. And choosing to trust them and what they saw in me when I didn't have that yet, was like really the one of the things that kept me from giving up or quitting or going back to some other life. 

And now I get to run a beautiful business that lights me up from the inside out, while traveling the world and knowing that, at least in some people's lives, I'm making a really big difference. And I can acknowledge that like, plainly and honestly, that there's no doubt in my mind that I'm doing something of value now. Because I was willing to go and look at that stuff and keep moving forward through it, I think.

Thomas: Can you take us into, like, a moment when you were facing something difficult? Like a specific moment or time that you remember when you were still working through that process? What did that look like?

Mandelberg: Yeah, absolutely. So I had a moment where I was ready to quit, I was ready to quit my business, I was ready to go back to… I… before my business, I was nomadic Vagabond hippie aimless and working kind of jobs that I hated so that I could just get enough money just to get back on the road and go on another adventure. And I was looking at, “Okay, I, I'm not making enough money in my business to support myself…” I was about a year and a year and a half in… and “I'm tired of trying, I'm tired of it not working. I'm tired of not having the magic recipe that makes this successful or makes my efforts worthwhile.” And I kind of had this beautiful sisterhood of a couple of friends who were in a business training program that I was in, and I told them, “Hey, like, I'm gonna get a job like, I can't do this anymore.” And they said, you know, “We get it. We've been there. We see you.” And their advice to me or their recommendation, their hope for me was to just wait a week, because a lot of times when we're in the emotional throes of something that we feel like we can't face, that's not the time to make big life changes are big choices that are going to change your path. 

Sometimes those are the times to just sit with it and feel the feelings and notice the emotions and maybe write down all the stories that are buzzing through your your head. But that's not the time to upend your whole life when you're in the midst of it. And so I did. I waited a week. And again, those were the people who saw something in me that I couldn't see yet. And so I was sort of looking at: What do they see? What is that that they're aware of that I haven't been willing to claim, own, or acknowledged yet? And it happens that in that week, a couple of people signed up for a session. A couple of those sessions turned into packages. My financial reality dramatically shifted in the span of a week or a week and a half. And I was doubling down on my business, I was like, “Okay, that's evidence to me that I'm moving in the right direction and I'm going to do with whatever the heck it takes to step into that, to step into whatever they're aware of, to step into my own discovery of what that is and what I can be.” But yeah, it was… it's emotionally challenging to run a business where you're basically selling yourself. You have to look at, “Do I believe in what I'm doing?” which is “Do I believe in me?” and we're not… most of us are not raised or programmed by the society to believe that we're worthwhile, or at least I wasn't. And so it took a lot of courage to start saying, “You know what I can, and I'm going to try and I'm going to unpack whatever story that is that says I shouldn't or I can't.”

Thomas: That's wonderful. I love that waiting a week. That's… I'm going to use that. That’s a huge bit of wisdom there. That's amazing.

Mandelberg: Yea, it sounds simple. But it does make a difference. 

Thomas: Well, my second question is then, now that you're on the other side of the rite of passage, what is your life like? And what is your work like? And how do you show up in your work? 

Mandelberg: Yeah, so I run a six figure business out of a sprinter van. I haven't given up the hippie Vagabond side of me, I just gave up the starving artists part of that. I make art. I write books. I have two podcasts. I have, I think, nine or ten different programs that I run. Usually, I'm only running about five or six in a year but I have a bunch of online courses and creations. I am on all different kinds of platforms and people  thank me for my work. People show up to classes or workshops that I teach from all over the world. And I literally thrive on getting to do the work that I'm doing. I feel like I get paid to be myself more so than I get paid to do some service that I've come up with. And my brain works in kind of an interesting way. Because I have that heart-centered, spiritual emotional awareness of what I think how the universe works in my interesting point of view. And then I also have this kind of engineering brain of like tactics and strategy and pieces of the puzzle coming together and using automation and stuff like that. So I get to use both of those expertises, kind of, in my business where I'm helping people bridge that world of, you know, we're doing really deep, powerful work, but we have to use these really technological strategies to get the word out about them. And how do we do that without falling out of alignment with who we really are? So yeah, I get to live my passion which is creative. It's location independent. It's getting to see and be with the people that I love, no matter where they are in the world. Like, my mom was just going through a health kind of crisis issue the last few months and I got to just drive up to Oregon and spend that time with her and have her back while she was going through that, with absolutely no question in my mind that that's where I was going next. There was nothing else I had to move around to make that possible. And to get to live a life where that is something I can do with ease is, like, really extraordinary to me.

Thomas: Definitely. I'm curious how ritual played a part in your rite of passage. Was there a moment when you did a certain kind of ceremony or small ceremonies, or…

Mandelberg: Oh yeah. There's been lots of ways I've participated in… I mean, I've run my own women's circles and had… attended medicine ceremonies, and many gatherings that were deeply powerful for me. And also a big one for me is daily ritual and having sort of ceremony in my regular life. Every single day, I write before I get out of bed in the morning. I write before I go to bed at night and that is like, that's my spiritual practice, that's my mental health practice. That's where I connect to, you know, mantras and affirmations and gratitude and I'd say a gratitude practice is like the biggest tool that I've used over the years to keep my vibe where it needs to be, to keep… to pull me out of depression if that comes up. To raise, just raise me to the frequency I want to be living on. And then meditation has been a really like ongoing practice that sometimes I fall out of and then go back to and my goodness when I'm back on the wagon of meditating every day… And it is such a huge life hack, like the downloads and the insights and the information and the like peace and calm that's available with a meditation practice. I know I'm, like strumming a very old harp here, but it is so valuable and so life changing, in my opinion. So I think it's a combination of the daily rituals and practices that I have and then absolutely, I've had some, the, like, deep child stories of… I had sort of a evil stepfather when I was growing up and a lot of the work around that has been done in ceremony too and looking at my relationship patterns and who I be and in relation to other people and how I interact and how I'd like to be in those places. And sort of discovering what's the first step in changing that pattern? And finding that sort of throughline through ceremony and through sitting with healers. And I mean, shamanic journeying without medicine, and also with medicine, has been, yeah, a big catalyst in my growth. Absolutely.

Thomas: And is ritual something that you use with your clients at all?

Mandelberg: Definitely. Yeah. I mean, when I started my business, I was doing hypnotherapy. So I was using that as sort of a ritual and practice, also, but I bring in guided meditation and visualization. And we talk about the kinds of habits we're building and the ways that we're tending to our energy. A lot in my group programs, while we're talking about really strategic stuff, like hiring an assistant or, you know, using your email list well, or, you know, building out your next course or program, that is also happening simultaneously with the conversation about the energetics of who we're being and how that's magnetizing people to our businesses. So, yeah.

Thomas:  As you're speaking, I'm getting a sense of so much intention, like intention with yourself in your heart, in your own practice in building your own life, your own work life and your life the way you want it to be, and then providing that to the people that you mentor and coach. It's really…. it's really inspiring.

Mandelberg: Yeah, I think intention is everything. Yeah, I think our reality is so much about the being and not as much as we think about the doing. And it's super important to pay attention to that I think…and and that, to recognize that we get to choose, we get to choose what we desire and focus our energy on that and that intentionality can change our entire life.

[MUSIC]

If you enjoy Shame Piñata, consider checking out our second show. It’s called Daily Magic for Peace and it’s a totally different kind of show. Each episode invites you to grab an item and do a simple ritual for peace in Ukraine. Episodes are less than 10 minutes long with a focus on calming the nervous system and keeping your heart open. You can find Daily Magic for Peace wherever you're listening to this podcast.

Thomas: One thing I wanted to ask you is that you spoke about broadening into community and trusting community more as you were growing. And I'm curious how your experience of community may be different now than it was before.

Mandelberg: Oh, yeah, totally. I had the story that I have to do it all myself, that no one is safe, and that I'm alone. And so I had this, I still have kind of this fierce independence to me. But it was a chip on my shoulder before and now it's a quality that I have access to more than anything. And, yeah, it took some trying, and it took some experimentation to find communities that I did feel safe and held in, to find a sense of belonging in those places. And that alone is a huge growth experience to go from. I know so many of us sort of far-out healers and holistic practitioners and like, just tuned-in people feel like we're alone in the world. And that, you know, if we get too visible, or get too loud about who we truly are, that we have that witch-wound that says, “Oh, no, you're going to be, you know, ostracized for this.” And finding places where you do feel safe to be all of you, where you feel safe to be in your bigness and your most magical and weird self and be accepted and adored and like high-fived and celebrated for that. That's a game changer, to not just be witnessed, but to be surrounded by people who get that side of you and maybe resonate to the same frequency is eye-opening, especially for me first as someone who… 

I was raised in kind of a Christian community, not community, but the town I was in had a lot of Christian people growing up. And my mom raised us believing in like the Law of Attraction and the Akashic Record, and she used to channel and all this stuff. And so she kind of told me as a kid, you know, “We talked about this stuff at home, but we, it would probably be better if you don't talk about it with your friends.” And I carried that probably too far out into my adulthood of, “I have this weird, magical view on reality, but it's better if I just don't tell anyone about it, because people who disagree might, you know, shame me for it or make it wrong or not want to be around me because I have these weird views.” And so it took some time to deprogram that, but finally being in places where I feel that sense of belonging - and I know that that's possible for literally anyone out there. There is no kind of weird that's so weird, that it’s not shared by at least a few other people. Which is why things like Comic Con are so cool. It's like, in school you were  probably a nerd and now you have all these people who think you're awesome for that thing. That's worth finding! There's websites like meetup dot com. There's all kinds of gatherings that exist in you know, the online space but also in person in different cities and communities that it's worth doing some research and going to show up to things like that, that maybe seem uncomfortable at first to see if you can find your your village, your sort of like-minded friends. Because it's easy to convince ourselves if those people haven't come across us in our lives, that we're the weirdo, that we're the odd man out. And the truth is, yeah, there's a lot of community available for any kind of person I think. And it takes courage to go and dig into that but it's so worth it. It's so worth it to not feel alone. We're not a kind of animal that's meant to be alone.

Thomas: No, it's like a matter of health and survival for us to actually…

Mandelberg: Hugely. Connection is vital to life.

Before we ended our conversation, I asked Molly if there was any last bit of wisdom she wanted to share with us. 

Mandelberg: Question everything. “Is this true about me? You know, what would be the opposite of this? Is there evidence to show that that's also true?” You know, “What do I want to be right now? How would I like to be feeling? What would excite me? What can I add into my life right now that would just feel better or change to the game?” And then one of the things I say at the end of my podcast every time is, “Ask big questions!” …so that's a curiosity piece. And “Take bold actions!” So like show up. Try something new. Go exploring. Become the like, explore discovering your life every single day. And yeah… “You're here for a reason” is the last thing I say in my sort of sign off. Because I think it's true. I don't think people come into these bodies by accident. And it could be to change one life, and it could be to change a lot of lives, but it could just be to change your own life and learn, you know, what more you're capable of being and perceiving and actualizing for yourself. But that stuff is worth showing up for.

Molly’s story, Molly’s journey, and the passion she shows for her work are inspiring. I’m going to leave you with her wonderful list of questions. I encourage you, if you have a moment, now or later on today, maybe sit with them for a bit and see what downloads you get:

What do I want to be right now? 

How would I like to be feeling? 

What would excite me? 

What more am I capable of? 

Molly Mandelberg is the Founder of Wild Hearts Rise Up, Creator of “Magnetic Influencer Collective” and also the writer and illustrator of "The Wild Hearts Rise Up Oracle Deck". Molly works with coaches, healers, and conscious leaders to broadcast their messages with ease, so they can reach more people, and make more money with less time spent.

Our music is by Terry Hughes. Find us on IG and Twitter at shamepinata, reach us through our website, shamepinata.com and subscribe to the show on your favorite player. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S4 E1 The World's First Ceremony Creation Platform (Megan Sheldon)

Episode Summary

In those significant life changing moments, like becoming a parent or losing a parent, it’s easy to feel lost, ungrounded. We might think to ourselves, “Yeah, ceremony could maybe be a useful thing right now, but where do I start?” Well, there’s an app for that and it’s beautiful!

 

Additional Information

→ Be Ceremonial Website: https://www.beceremonial.com/

→ Be Ceremonial App (App Store): https://apps.apple.com/app/be-ceremonial/id1582513679

→ Be Ceremonial App (Google Play): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.beceremonial.app

 

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Sheldon: Here’s a wedding ceremony and you follow it step by step and here’s a funeral ceremony… and I wanted to blow that out of the water. And so it’s like a choose your own adventure experience where… here’s a bunch of things to inspire you. Pick and choose the ones that you like and then change them if you want. 

In those significant life-changing moments, like becoming a parent or losing a parent, it’s very easy to feel lost and ungrounded. We might think to ourselves, “Ceremony could maybe be a useful thing right now, but where do I start?” As the saying goes, there’s an app for that and it’s beautiful. 

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Today I’m excited to invite you to join me on a behind-the-scenes look into Be Ceremonial, the world's first ceremony creation platform. It’s an app you can download from the App or the Google Play Store and it lets you build simple, customizable ceremonies for any purpose. 

Just to give you a sense of how it works, I’m going to open the app on my phone right now and tell you what I see. So on the homescreen is a list of latest offerings including new ceremonies and free virtual workshops. If I click on the “Create” button, I can open a free sample ceremony and customize that or I can choose from a list of ceremonies with a defined topic, including trying to conceive, mother blessing, miscarriage, abortion, wedding, divorce, terminal diagnosis, or sitting vigil - and that’s only a partial list. 

Okay, so here’s how building a ceremony works. If I click into the free sample ceremony, I’m asked to choose if this ceremony will be for me or for someone else (I think it’s cool that you can actually gift a ceremony to a friend). Then I’m asked to choose if it will be me doing it alone, with other people, or virtually. And then I can begin building my ceremony which is structured in 5 parts: opening, past, present, future, and closing. For the opening, the app gives me three choices: Opening Space, Candle Lighting, and Three Breaths. I can click into any of these to see what they’re about, what materials and preparation I’d need to do them, and a list of steps to follow. And I can look through all of the offerings until I’ve found the flow that works best for me. For example, I might choose to take 3 breaths to open my ceremony, release the past with a fire release ritual, take a ritual walk to honor the present, and then ceremonially cross a threshold to step into my new future, and finally close with a water ceremony. Once I’ve chosen all of the components, they will be available as a step-by-step list that I can have with me as I prepare and actually hold the ceremony. It’s actually very cool and user friendly. And it takes some of the guesswork (and groundwork, really) out of building a ceremony so that I can really focus on what is moving in me and choose ritual components that match that flow. 

Now that we’ve taken a deep dive into the app itself, let’s come back out to the bigger picture so I can bring you into a conversation I had last spring with Megan Sheldon, the co-founder and CEO of Be Ceremonial. Here’s a listen.

Thomas: I'm curious, how did you find your way to ceremony in life?

Sheldon: I've always been a community seeker, a connector, a convener. I was recently at a retreat that I was hosting around ritual and a girlfriend of mine from high school was telling me about these, you know, we didn't… we didn't call it ceremonies then. But she's like, “You would host these gatherings and you were so intentional in the questions you would ask and the way you would bring people together.” She was the first of any of my friends to have a baby. And she remembers, I had forgotten about this, but she remembered I gathered all of her girlfriends around in the room and I'd found this little owl shaker and I passed it around and asked everybody to infuse it with, well, you know, wishes and blessings for her. And that was, you know, 12 or 13 years ago. So I'm constantly reminded that this path hasn't been an A to B kind of path, it's been an unfolding. 

When I was 20 years old, my mom went through breast cancer. And my mom and I are very close. And I was living in Montreal and she was here in Vancouver. And I remember getting the phone call from her and just like every instinct in me wanted to just get on a plane and come home and be with her. But she didn't want that. She… I was in the middle of exams and she really needed me to stay where I was, so she could focus on herself. But what she ended up doing, I now see as ritual, is she would find these books, and she was introduced to Yungian kind of theory and Marion Woodman and Women who Run with the Wolves and all of these books that, you know, she was just discovering, and she would buy two copies, and she would send me one in Montreal, and I remember I'd get these books and I would be reading them at the same time she was reading them on the other coast of Canada. And opening up this kind of world of the Divine Feminine and what it means to connect with your Ancestors and your roots and your heritage. And I'm… a white settler stolen lands here in Canada and I have really struggled with my place in this… in this part of the world. And where do I fit? Where do I belong? I think that need for belonging has been a huge theme in my life. And these books kind of taught me how to connect with that part of myself. And with my mom and with her mom and with her mother's mother and this beautiful lineage of women and men. So it's a tricky question and one that continues to evolve. But if I am being completely honest with myself, I have always been ceremonial, I just was never given the language or the permission to kind of see myself that way. So I've had to really come into it on my own and reclaim that space in a way that feels like me.

Megan echoed one of my own ideas about ritual, that of it be self-organizing. That we know how do ritual together, it is one of our inherent gifts. We might have just forgotten.

Sheldon: It's so interesting because people always say to me, “Oh, I could never do what you do. I could never do this!” And I think, “Do what? This was just like… I'm actually not doing…” I always say to people, “I'm actually not doing this, I'm setting the container, you know, I'm offering the invite...” I've studied a lot under the Art of Hosting - I don’t know if you know it - it’s like a global-wide kind of way of gathering people and their philosophy is like, the invitation is everything. If you can send out an invite and let people know what to expect and what to prepare and how to feel empowered in the space so that they're not having to look for the leader like, “Who's in charge?” Like, that's… that's one of the worst ways to convene is to have that hierarchy. So the idea of the Circle Way of having everybody step in and be responsible for co-creating the ceremony, the ritual environment has always guided me. And I'm a firm believer, and I say that every time I can be in a ceremony or a retreat, or rituals with friends, I, you know, I focus on the invitation, and I say, we were all stepped into this and we are now going to co-create this space together. And if you need to be quiet, if you need to walk away, if you need to scream, if you need to do anything that is okay. Like this is you're making your own experience. And I think that's just a way of thinking that we haven't really been taught in our capitalistic patriarchal culture of, you know, the top-down, right? This feels rebellious for a lot of people so yeah…

Thomas: And it's kind of the same principle with the app, right? Because you've created this technology that people can... there's tools, there's framework, there's structure, there's examples, there's ideas, all this kind of thing…. But you're not there helping somebody in person, helping somebody create a ceremony and they can create a ceremony… Like, I created two today that are really important to me but I'm not ready to do them yet but I have the framework set for when I'm ready to step into them. And so you won't be with me when I do them. I mean, unless I could call you later and talk to me because I know you…

Sheldon: Please!

Thomas: …but like, you won't really be there with me. But yeah… you've created the… you've given the invitation and you've created the container.

Sheldon: Yeah, and it took me a long time to see how ritual and ceremony, which for me is so sacred and so precious and so important in my life and in the lives of those that I serve and that I work with to see it as, you know, bridging with technology. So backtrack a little bit, my husband and I decided to get married eight or nine years ago now and we looked at the wedding kind of template that was in front of us and we've been to so many weddings before, and they were so lovely and so wonderful. And they weren’t us. I never was like… oh… this felt exactly like me because it was exactly like my friend or my family member. So I really wanted to learn how to intentionally craft a wedding that represented our values. So that was our first ceremony to co-create together and I think we did a really wonderful job. And shortly after our wedding, we tried to get pregnant and we did. And, you know, seven weeks later, we miscarried. And then we got pregnant again and miscarried. And a third time, miscarried. And each time it was like this invisible loss that nobody knew. It was just, I mean… this was seven years ago. So it was just starting to kind of get a little bit more traction in terms of the media and people talking about it a little bit more, but nobody was talking about a ceremony where I could honor and say goodbye. I was never even offered any of the remains from the hospitals after my DNC procedures. It just… I know now I could have asked for it and they would have had to have given it to me. I didn't know that then. I didn't know my… what I was allowed to do. Everything felt so kind of, you know, the health care system owned everything, right? You don't ever think of it as being something there that you can challenge or that you can confront. 

Thomas: Yeah.

Sheldon: So I started to create my own rituals around my loss. And my husband, Johan and I, we created our own rituals and ceremonies to acknowledge not only the loss of life, but also the loss of the stories we'd started to tell ourselves. I had a lot of growing anxiety. What was happening? Why was my body doing this? Will I ever get pregnant? You know, it was in my mid to late 30s at that point, so that… you know, there was this time pressure that was both external and internal. Yeah, I think that time for me it was really about learning how these things that I naturally wanted and needed did in my life were rituals. It was ceremony. It was, you know… I wanted to sit with my girlfriends and not only share my story, but hear their story. I wanted to, you know, every year on a due date or on a loss date, I wanted to have something that I could do that would connect me so that I wouldn't forget that I wouldn't grow… grow further away from it. 

Thomas: At the same time that Megan and Johan were dealing with pregnancy loss, they were also losing Johan’s father to ALS. 

Sheldon: There were so many invisible moments along that journey that we did not know how to recognize. You know, a diagnosis when you first… when he first received it, but when he first told us like, what do you do in those moments? How do you bring ritual and bring ceremony to that moment when the floor comes crashing out from underneath you? And then over the next, you know, six months and year and two years as he started to lose his capacities and we started to lose that kind of feeling of hope for the future and…  There were so many of those moments that I did not know, at the time I could have brought ritual into, I could have been kind of slowly building out that kind of legacy. So we went through that experience. And then when the pandemic hit and my husband was, you know, found himself at home, and I really wanted to imagine something new. He's a problem solver. He's like, “I just want to build something that will help people.” That’s just has been his driver. It has been a really interesting experience to bridge ceremony with technology and one that I continue to learn about. But I'll get emails from people on a weekly basis about how, you know, they were gifted something through this experience, or they discovered something. They were able to honor, you know, a death anniversary in a way that they never thought was possible. And I know for 100% of… I know without a doubt that I would never have crossed paths with that person had it not been through technology. You know, they'll be in Australia, or Belgium, or St. Louis and they'll be reaching out because this app touched them in a certain way, it impacted their experience. So yeah.

Thomas: Wow, you're inspiring me now. I'm thinking I have a lot of my good friends, I have their death anniversaries on my calendar so I remember to reach out to them. I would love to share your app with them. 

[MUSIC]

Thomas: So as people check out the app and they get started with it, do you have any guidance for them on how to start the process?

Sheldon: Yeah. So the app is Be Ceremonial and you are invited in and there's two pillars that make up the app environment. And one is the ability to create your own ceremony, like a DIY approach. And we started with the birth and death aspects, the two areas of life, because they're the two thresholds. They're usually the places where people are seeking ceremony the most. They… you know, they have a miscarriage or they find out they're pregnant, or they, you know, they want to honor, you know, the end of their breastfeeding journey. There's something that happened in that kind of beginning of life stage or the end of life. You know, they lost a parent, or a death anniversary’s coming up, or they have been hanging on to these ashes from a cremation and they don't know what to do with them. So we really started to populate the app with these ceremonies that you could create for yourself around birth and death. And we are now in the midst of bridging out the life cycle. So, I am a Life Cycle Celebrant. I work with people on ceremonies around mastectomies and hysterectomies. Ceremonies around moving into a new home or leaving a childhood home. I've worked with people who have been fired and lost a job and they wanted to create a ceremony to kind of honor what that job brought them and also kind of burn in the fire the things that they wanted to never do again. There are so many points along the lifecycle, both visible and invisible, that deserve to be ritualized. They deserve to have that kind of ceremonial intention built into it. So that's, that's the pillar one that's like one side of the app experience is to be able to create your ceremonies and some people might come in and know exactly what they want and they just want to create a ceremony around a death anniversary, and they can just, you know, pay per use so it's a single-time purchase that they want. 

And then other people are really seeking something more. They're really wanting to understand their own relationship with ritual and ceremony. Or they’re a care provider. We've got a lot of death doulas and birth doulas and hospice volunteers, midwives, naturopath counselors using our app and they create ceremonies for their clients and their patients. So they're using this as a tool that they can kind of bring to the people that they work with. I've also got a lot of celebrants using this, so there's a wedding ceremony in there and if you are, celebrate, and you've got a new client, and you want to kind of give them some ideas as to what's possible in terms of ritual, you can create a wedding ceremony that you then send to them and they can pick and choose rituals they like. You can then add new ones, you can create your own, you can draw… You know, it's the biggest thing to remind yourself there is that it's you know, you don't need to follow this word for word. It's just a guide to inspire you. I think of it like a blueprint. 

The other side… the other pillar of the app which we're really starting to build out this year is the learning environment. So I've hosted tons of online workshops and courses I ran last year, had about 120 students come through a six week training that we offered around end-of-life rituals. And I want to take all of those little mini workshops and build them into the app environment. So for the people that are the members, the subscribers (you can have a monthly or yearly subscription), I want there to be a place where they can go and think, “Oh, gosh, if a client just reached out, reached out or a friend reached out, and you know, they have a child who died.” And they really want to acknowledge the you know, the grief that the family and the friends might be holding. And I want to be able to create a ceremony workshop that explores kids’ relationship with grief, and how to explore that.” You know, on the other side of it, maybe there's something around, you know, I've hosted a lot of divorce ceremonies, which has been really interesting for people. And everybody's always like, “Oh, I want to know more, I want to know what what else I can learn about this and how else this can be done and where the, you know, what other cultures are doing” So being able to look at the… the learning environment as a place to have that, that ability to go deeper if and when you choose. I think is really exciting for me, and for a lot of the people that have reached out because I think that there's, you know, the people that come in, and they just want something quick and they want something now and they know, you know, they don't need a whole lot of hand holding. And then there's the people that really want to build a community here and they want to share back their story after they created a ceremony so that it might inspire someone else. And that's my big hope with where Be Ceremonial can grow is that it will become, you know, “This is us. This is our invitation. We've been a catalyst, we've created this framework. Now let's let the community populate it. Let's let people step up and make this their own space. Let's allow this to be a place that connects us and inspires us when we hear stories from people around the world and how they took the same five rituals that I took and yet their ceremony turned out so differently. That's so interesting. I want to hear about that…” And that’s the storyteller in me is just wanting to create a space where those stories can be celebrated and witnessed.

Thomas: That's wonderful. Well, I feel like what you've created with this, the two of you, it's just such a gift. So on behalf of, I don’t know, everybody everywhere, I just want to thank you so much.

And I want to thank you for taking time out of your day to join me in this exploration of Megan and Johan’s work at Be Ceremonial. I hope that a piece of Megan’s story, either a moment of creating ritual to honor a life transition or her overall entrepreneurial spirit has inspired you as it has inspired me. Megan will be back soon to speak more about slow technology and how she is using ritual to transition from pandemic to endemic. 

Megan Sheldon is a Cultural Mythologist, End of Life Storyteller, and a Celebrant. She is also the co-founder of Be Ceremonial, the world's first ceremony creation platform, giving you the ritual tools you need to create your own ceremony. You can sign up for a free account at Be Ceremonial dot com or download the App in the App Store.

Our music is by Terry Hughes. Find us on IG and Twitter at shamepinata, reach us through our website, shamepinata.com. And subscribe to the show on your favorite player. Also be sure to check out our second show, Daily Magic for Peace, supporting you as you support Ukraine. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

Bonus - The Materials of Ritual (Material Feels Podcast)

Episode Summary

Ritual can help begin things, end things, bridge over from one thing to the next. What differentiates one kind of ceremony from another often comes down to intention. But what are the materials of ritual and how can we use them to design ceremonies to support us in doing "the thing"?

Shame Piñata Opening & Closing Music by Terry Hughes
Material Feels music by Liz de Lise

Image credit Alexandra Khudyntseva: https://unsplash.com/@sannka

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Colleen Thomas: I have to contain my natural excitement a bit, so to be quiet and to listen, cause what my job is, is to listen and to hear and to hear between the words and to say, oh, wow. I tell me more about that….a lot of deep listening and just profound respect for their process and gratitude that they would in that they are involving me in their process. Um, cause they’re letting me in, even if I’m not in the ritual, I’m helping them plan it and probably going to check in with them afterward just to sort of get a debrief on how it went.

I feel in the zone the whole time I’m in ritual space, especially if I’m not facilitating or having to be my brain, if I can just be in my body, you know? I feel most empowered when I feel like I’m not doing it alone,when whatever is moving, maybe being witnessed by people, listening to this thing I’m sharing or watching this thing I’m doing, and they’re with me, you know, they’re a hundred percent with me. They’re like linked up with me, like energetically in this space. I feel like I’m like connected to spirit, to ancestors, to, you know, in my case to the goddess or all it is, well, then I feel like I’m, I’m not alone. And that, that is very, very freeing and comforting.

Colleen: My name is Colleen Thomas I’m a ritual artist and an independent audio producer. I am based in the San Francisco bay area. materials that I work with are time and space and elements.

Catherine: How would you define a ritual?

Colleen: It’s intentional space that’s created with one or more people and it is, um, usually has an intention, with a sacred space of some kind created, um, whether that’s or an intentional space, I could say, cause it’s not always the, the word sacred and religion kind of go together.

Like that bridge to juniors thing I had when I was leaving brownies was a ritual. It was very secular ritual, you know, anyway, and it wasn’t, and they didn’t make a big deal and invoke any gods or goddesses or anything obviously. But you know, like it was an intentional space. Like parents came, it was like, there was a program, it was like a, this is the purpose of this gathering. It was a ceremony.

Welcome to Material Feels, where we explore the intimate relationships between people and the materials they have fallen in love with. I’m your host, Catherine Monahon.

Just a heads up this episode is a bit intense: ritual and ceremony is a deep topic. It can bring up heavy emotions, and the kind of work Colleen does asks us to go to a vulnerable place. You might need time to process during or after so I encourage you to press pause, jot down some thoughts, listen with a friend and maybe give yourself some extra time after listening to decompress. Please take care of yourself.

The interview with Colleen was recorded on Ohlone land in Oakland, California, and this episode was produced on the traditional territory of the Kumeyaay. The Kumeyaay’s territory has incredibly diverse geography in the state of California, stretching from the coast to the desert, with valleys and mountains between. The Kumeyaay have intimate knowledge of this topography, their cultural practices in tune with the seasonal changes.

San Diego County has more reservations than any other county in the country. Every time I do a land acknowledgement, I don’t just google “Whose land am I on?” I take time to read and listen to the voices of the people. Indigenous ways of relating to the material world are sustainable and sacred; as a Material Feels listener, I imagine you care about those things, too. Non-indigenous listeners, please take time to learn about the not-so-distant history of residential boarding schools; pay a land tax to the first people’s whose land you occupy, and use whatever platforms or resources you have to bring awareness and take action.

Today, we’re exploring the materials associated with a creative practice we’ve all engaged with in one way or another: ritual & ceremony. Ritualist Colleen Thomas specializes in crafting rituals for life transitions and co-creating ceremonies that often deviate from the traditional ones many of us are used to (baby showers, birthdays, weddings or funerals).

Catherine: Why do people come to you in search of ritual?

Colleen: I connect with people, they are going through a change in they’re a little bit lost and they’re not sure how to create comfort and create meaning and create perspective when… it’s like things happening to me is sort of the theme, right? Like, you know, I’m S yeah, like I’m suddenly going through a divorce or, um, or COVID is suddenly here and well, what are we going to do? I did some rituals with friends about that. Betty Ray said on my show, Shane piñata that, rituals create a space that help us create a container for the strong emotions that come with transition.

Catherine: Then what do we do with that container after like, I... I’m interested. I love that quote. And I think about you building the container and thoughtfully filling it with the materials that you choose with that person, but let that like, then what happens?

Colleen: Well, we have to figure out what the intention of the ritual is. The planning of it is almost as good as the doing. And the planning in my experience takes a lot longer than that. The actual doing the ritual right there doing the ritual could take an hour or something, but the planning can take weeks. And so a lot of the shifting and then making sense of the thing and the coming to terms with the thing. And then what is this going to mean for me and what are all my feelings about it and what are, what do I want to do with these feelings? Do I want to express them? Do I want to be angry and throw things? Do I want to, you know, curl up in a ball and you know, whatever, they are right. Playing with those feelings, working with the feelings, um, w that all happens during the prep. I mean, it could happen in the ritual too, but it’s happening deeply with the prep, right? Figure all this stuff out and make sense of everything and just really pull it apart. It’s like giving ourselves time to really let this thing be what it is, and to take up space and to not just be like an inconvenience, we shove aside this is important, this transition and how I feel about it and how I’m reacting to it, all the positive and negative ways. I might be reacting to this, you know, they’re all valid.

And so it’s like creating space for that. Especially like if you and I were in a process together, creating something for you, like, I would hope I could be there for you as somebody, you could explore that with, to whatever degree you want it to, and just kind of be in that space with you.

When we do the prep work and we feel into what, what will the, the hour long ritual say, it’s an hour? What will that do for us? What do we want that to do for us? How do we design that? So it does. And the thing, you know, it’s a safe container, or we get the rage out or we’re witnessed for this, or we walk across the bridge or whatever we’re doing, right? Like we figure out how to engineer design it. Um, so that it maximizes the potential of that happening. And then if that’s done well, and if everything goes to plan and you know, rituals got its Spirit’s got his own way and its own agenda.

But in that moment there most likely will be some kind of change or shift or transition transformation. And then afterwards there can be just a feeling of, you know, release and it happened. And now I’m like this often a sense of, um, vulnerability because we were vulnerable and we told our truth in front of people, you know? And, um, sometimes when I tell a very personal thing or a deep thing or something, a couple of layers in my heart or whatever, I start shaking afterwards. And sometimes I don’t even know I’ve done that until I start shaking. And then I realize, okay, that was a, that was a, you know, a vulnerable thing that I just did.

But wait! You say. This is an art materials podcast, is it not!? Why are we talking about ritual and intentions and all this abstract stuff and not… oil paint, or clay, or paper? Well, I see ritual as an art form, and with every art form, there are materials and creative practices that go into creating it. Depending on one’s faith, culture, personal choices, and intentions, the materials are vast and varied.

Catherine: Are there particular materials that you are drawn to?

Colleen: The intentional container is a big one, probably the most, probably the biggest one. Intentional container can be created by like reading a poem or taking a breath or having a moment of silence. It could be reading the Lord’s prayer. It could be anything, you know, but it doesn’t have to be religious.

Offerings are always the first thing, you know, um, making an offering of whatever that is. It could be words, it could be prayer. It could be a water, flower petals,

Some of the intentional objects to create the space, which, um, again, most of my experiences from the pagan community, which invokes the elements and the directions: objects such as feathers or incense for air, um, salt or earth for earth water, a bowl of water for water, um, and a candle or, and, you know, uh, an electric candle, um, or an image of fire.

Then there’s also symbols of the numinous, goddess, or God like statues Mary’s images, Mandalas.

Honoring of, you know, the, the thing that is, uh, spirit to us or nature, or not spirit for people who don’t, who don’t connect to spirit.  

Honoring the ancestors is another big, um, piece of my practice.

Journaling and art supplies, um, can help us, you know, um, process stuff. And also remember what happened, create something to take with us with a new intention. Um, and music can be very helpful to can put us in a different space.

Colleen identified time and space as her core materials: creating a “container,” for people to engage with deeper emotions, imagination and connection. Then there are a range of materials that go into building out that container into a ritual or ceremony specially designed for you: special objects, photographs, symbolic objects for the elements, art supplies, music.

She also talks about invoking the elements…and I am intrigued. What is invoking, though? How does one… do that?

Colleen: I do that with rescue remedy, you know, the five flower formula that is, um, that is a homeopathic remedy to deal with stress and trauma. What, I don’t have it with me, I just kind of invoke it. I just say the five flowers in that, you know, in that remedy, I just, I need you right now and I need you to come and help me calm down and be in this moment and just kind of invoking them in my mind. And with my heart really works for me. It creates, it creates their presence. It welcomes their presence.

Catherine: When you were just saying about invoking and inviting, I thought it was really interesting. You, you closed your eyes, um, and you sort of had this different emotion cross your face.  And, um, I’m curious when you are inviting something in, when you were in or invoking or inviting or, um, I don’t know if conjuring is the right word. Um, what does that feel like for you?

Colleen: My body feels warmer when I go into that space. Um, it’s not a headspace, it’s a body space and it feels like for me, it feels like a very receptive space. Maybe that’s why I close my eyes because I’m not trying to, you know, see anything or accomplish anything, but I’m just like instead sort of turning inward, coming to a more quiet place with my eyes closed. And I usually put my hands out sort of unconsciously, like, you know, um, receiving with my palms open, upward, just sort of, um, inviting and imagining allowing that presence to come to me. And it’s really just coming to me in me. Right. I mean, if you were here, you might have the same experience, but might be different. It’s all, it’s, you know, it’s like, not, especially if we’re not like burning something in this space, it’s not in this space, it’s just in us. Right. So it’s like, I feel like we, we each have our own connections to these things and we each have our own connection to different deities or divinity or plant medicine or essence of whatever, whatever it is, even memories, really healing memories can, we can invoke. And if I remember them and then they can start to kind of filter down through our bodies and ourselves and our bodies can sort of quiet and, and remember, and you know how that, yeah, actually I I’m really happy.

Do you have a memory that quiets your mind or gets you in a certain state? It’s kind of like the happy place we explored a few months back, inspired by paper artist Zai Divecha. Except in this case, it’s a distilled memory, like Hillary’s memory of riding a bicycle down the center of an aisle in the elementary school theater for a production of Paul Bunyan.

For me, I visualize the steps from wedging a ball of clay to centering it on the wheel.

Colleen shares more about the importance of the elements, and how invoking the materials of water, fire, air and earth can help build the foundation for a particular ritual.

Colleen: If you’re at a ceremony and somebody is calling in the elements in a really, um, effective way, I feel like people start to feel it in their bodies, like the way they describe it, you know, welcome north welcome earth. You know, um, the land we stand upon the, you know, the rock beneath our feet, the bedrock beneath that, the way we are connected to our ancestry and the, you know, the strength and the mountains and, you know, the things that they say that the images that they create with their words, uh, it’s usually words. Um, although it can be movement too, depending on how you’re doing the invocation of the elements, but if they do it well there, I think people begin to feel it. They begin to feel like the bones in their body and the heaviness of their body on the earth and gravity, and like the things that are earthy. And, and if you have like a, a bowl of salt, you know, grabbing the salt and, or a bowl of earth grabbing the earth, you know, like just, you know, like things where you really start to feel it and connect with that aspect of, of that, that element.

There’s a long list of reasons that people gravitate towards ritual. I think it helps to think of them in two categories. First, ritual as a private, ongoing way to enrich your life and create stories through small moments, and second, ritual as a more elaborate ceremony sometimes with others involved, for processing hard emotions and to find a sense of peace and belonging.

Colleen gives me an example of how a small, ongoing ritual can make a big difference.

Colleen: I have a lot of intentional jewelry that, you know, is, was given to me like the moonstone I’m wearing today. It’s  as big round moonstone. And, um, it, I didn’t give it to myself at a ceremony or anything woo or anything or anything, anything specific I really bought honestly bought it because I read the mists of Avalon a long time ago and fell in love with, uh, there’s must be a moonstone. And I don’t even remember now, but I just was like, I want a moonstone like that. And then I saw it at a store in Denver. It was a beautiful piece of moonstone. And, um, and I, I put it on I’m currently, um, in Ohio helping my mother through some health challenges. And I, when I packed, I was like, I’m taking the moonstone, even though I haven’t worn it for years.

I helps me stay calm. It really helps me be having inner calm heart. And so like every morning I put this on and there’s no choice. Cause I only brought the one necklace. I put it on every morning, but it’s like, this is part of my calmness for day.

Creating stories through ritual with jewelry, a morning intention setting for starting the day or an evening ritual for closing the day… I found this to be a relatable way ritual is already present in my life. When I record narration for the show, I put on specific jewelry, and the clothes that make me feel most like me. I do my hair in a special way. When I used to go out in the before times, I felt that my bracelets passed down to me from my grandparents were both protecting me and cheering me on.

So, what about the other category… the possibly public, more elaborate rituals to process emotion and craft a story in times of transition, celebration or upset. Most of us are familiar with these in the context of major life events (birthdays, weddings, funerals). And often these ceremonies are tangled up in religion.

A lil’ disclaimer… I was raised with very little exposure to religion; I consider myself pretty secular. In fact I have a bit of a bias against religion. I asked Colleen about the role of religion in ritual, and she mentioned the name of a guy I had never heard of: Matthew Fox. He helped found something called Creation Spirituality, a Judeo-Christian religion with a lot of crossover with psychology, feminism, art and physics. And there’s a lot of reverence for nature. Colleen tells me about Fox’s “Techno Cosmic Masses,” essentially ecstatic dance parties that started in Oakland and are now held globally (or were, before the pandemic). It’s a sort of a remix of mass, designed to build community and connect people to a visceral, ritualized celebration. She shares a bit more about how engaging with Techno Cosmic Masses inspired her and her now husband to co-create their wedding ceremony.

Colleen: There is something about you doing something with our body that, um, connects to our spirit in my experience. I volunteered with the mass and actually we, uh, with his permission, use it to create our wedding. Um, and in spending a lot of time with the mass, I, I realized that I spoke to Matt about this. I said, you know, it’s, it’s really hard to explain the mass to people. It’s this really, really involved, intense experience to go to a cosmic mass. And it is based in the Christian faith because, cause he comes from that. There’s dancing and, um, there’s worshiping and there’s, it’s a very embodied and it’s very difficult to explain it. Like if I showed you a video, you get a little more, if you went and you get it. Right. So when we were basing our wedding on the cosmic mass, we asked people to come. We ever said everybody come to one. Cause they were having them regularly come to once you can get it in your body, what this is and working with him, I realized, okay, the reason it’s so hard to explain it is because it’s not a head experience.

It is a heart and body experience. And to me, that’s where ritual is powerful. I’m not a heady person. I get really lost in, um, you know, uh, academic texts. I need to touch stuff….

My ears perked up when she was talking about bodily experiences and touching stuff. I so relate to this when it comes to the art world; I get lost when theory is the topic of conversation, or if there is a minimalist piece on display with a whole lot of writing I’m supposed to internalize.

I’m most present when I can engage with materials that are mutable… materials I can hold in my hand and squish. Learning about the cosmic masses, and remembering Colleen’s early memory of graduating from Brownies and crossing that bridge, I understand that while ritual or ceremony might seem synonymous with religion, the terms can live more freely and intersect much more with my own spirituality when I think about them in terms of visceral, bodily experiences.

Rabbit hole moment!

I was curious as to why ritual plays a bigger role in some societies rather than others. Since the U.S. is so heavily influenced by the OG colonizers (Oh hay England!), I learned about the impact of the industrial revolution on holidays and local festivals in the UK during the late 19th century.

Within a three year span, bank holidays went from 36 down to 4; the time spent off doing the rituals was seen as a loss in profit, and so… the calendar got changed. Engaging with ritual shifted from the public sector to something you were expected to figure out on your own time. Commercialized entertainment became the norm as well: sports, theaters and circuses grew in popularity. Sundays became the mandated day of worship, and in growing urban centers where conditions were not super sanitary, communal enjoyment found a home at the pub.

Just let that set in. Traditional and cross-cultural rituals and ceremonies have to interface with capitalism; fought for by certain groups, forfeited by others, traded in for maximized profits  and Sunday mornings, with approval from the dominant religion.

If you are off celebrating the moon and performing rituals left and right to process your emotions and build relationships with people who aren’t your coworkers, when will you have time to make and spend money?

Wait… is engaging with ritual and ceremony… anti-capitalist!?

Am I… secretly a priestess!?

Okay one last rabbit hole: there is also a history of mainstream media demonizing ritual and ceremony, making it seem spooky or evil (see: anything Pagan, witches, there’s a whole thing about apothecaries and home medicine. Demonizing the natural world is a thing, don’t get me started on the history of parks and the way nature is seen as a wild female in need of taming or should I say… domestication. Oh man. So many connections, for another day.

Where were we!?

Colleen and I discuss the materials and practices that might be used for four different types of rituals. Rituals to build connection, separate from something that needs be let go of, bring in newness or setting intention, and rituals for dedication and commitment.

First, connection.

Colleen: I would say materials for original connection might be a cord. They can be braided together. Things, obviously things that can be connected. Um, gosh, I guess you could even use like Legos or like bristle blocks or anything that, anything that you could physically put together and build, build something on. Um, I can imagine a family having a ritual of, um, connecting, you know, creating a family or blending families where they’re actually like building something out of Lego, you know, like each family has a color or something and they’ve just built something together.

Catherine: Oh, I love that. I’m from a blended family. So I’m like, oh my God, we should have done that that way.

Colleen: A separation or release, um, often the ritual tools, um, use for that as the materials would be, you know, um, things that would, you know, um, cut. Um, so scissors, um, maybe again, a cord to symbolize the connection. Um, maybe I’m braiding a cord. Um, I’ve done several release rituals in my life that some felt like cutting was appropriate and some felt like unbreaking, or unweaving was more appropriate.

Then we talk about “new seeds” – rituals to welcome in new chapters, set goals or invoke different versions of ourselves.

Colleen: A lot of people, um, plant an intention at the new moon and sort of harvested on the full moon, or you could do it on the winter solstice and the summer solstice, um, and a practice that I had for a while and my husband. We got some soil, we gotta bean put it in with an intention, watered it every day. And then after two or three days, you know, you see some shoots. Um, and, and I had a bean that was the intention was trust. Um, and it actually grew like crazy and it was like growing up the wall and across the ceiling and, and, um, we call it the trust being, it kind of took over the kitchen.

Then, there is dedication.

Colleen: Well, probably rings would be typical. Um, or, um, in terms of like a marriage would be typical. It’s fascinating to me that people walk around wearing things that identify the vows they’ve taken, right? Like, like, you know, I’m wearing a wedding ring and I also have a self-commitment ring for what I married myself. Um, and they’re very different in my mind. And people might guess where the wedding ring is. They might not guess what the other one is, cause that’s a less common ceremony. Um, but if I saw somebody wearing a you know, uh, a nun outfit or preacher outfit, you know, I would have a sense of where they’re, you know, you know, like it’s like, you, you it’s publicly claiming, you know, I’ve done this thing. I’ve dedicated myself in this way and I’m not hiding it.

What rituals are you drawn to when you hear about all the different kinds of materials and intentions and processes? What rituals are you already practicing and you maybe didn’t even realize?

I’m drawn to one in particular, and I think it has to do with my own stuff, as one might say. My own emotions and issues that I need support with. I’m most curious about separation. The ability to let go of something. To set it down.

But when I try to identify what I want to separate from, I can’t land on a person, place or thing. Sometimes I just get overwhelmed by… everything?”

I’m gonna pin that thought down for later… because often when we first identify the problem we want to solve, we’re actually looking at a symptom… a red flag indicating there is something else beneath the surface. Colleen talks about how often you have to go deeper to “finding the need” hidden in the pull to craft a ritual.

Colleen: Finding what wants to move and what it needs to move, and that might sound strange. So let me say more. So if I, if I’m feeling happy about something and I’m realizing that I need to have, I want to have a ceremony about, let’s take a concrete example. Um, let’s say I’ve, I’ve lost my job and with it, my sense of self, um, and that’s a grieving time and that, that, that beginning process of figuring out what needs to move like there’s grief. Maybe there’s a part of me that, um, maybe there’s other stuff, you know, that that’s like the journaling. And I talked about like, you know, finding out what what’s in there, what needs to move. Like in my mind, it’s kind of like, there’s, there’s discontent and hard feelings and they’re, they’re an indication that we’re changing and growing and that there’s emotion that wants to move. And, and what we tend to do is watch TV or buy something or, you know, not feel it cause it’s, it’s like, Ooh, you know, it’s all unconscious. There has to be some coping, so we can’t just run around screaming all the time, unfortunately. So, and yet is, do we have the capacity to create an intentional space where, where we can go into those feelings and how do we do that? Because nobody wants to do that. Right. It’s gotta be safe. We gotta know, we can get back out of it. If we go into hard feelings, a lot of us don’t go into hard feelings because we think we’ll never come out. So like, what do I need to go into those? Do I need to be willing? Um, I need to feel like I have support with me. Right. So a lot of that pre-work is like feeling into what are those feelings and what needs to move. And it’s an emotion, hint, it’s emotion, right? What needs to move? And then what does it need to move? Like, what is like, I guess those things I just said or what it might need to be like, it might need, you know, I’m, I need my best friend with me, you know, and I need that Teddy bear then that will, you know, like the, kind of the comforting, soothing container things like, you know, what, what does it need to move?

While Colleen was explaining this to me, the process of making sure someone has everything they need, I started to visualize packing a backpack for a long and arduous hike. You need to know the terrain, the climate. You need to think about sustenance, hydration. Maybe you bring music, a phone charger, a book or a portable watercolor set. With rituals, instead of hydration and sustenance, you need tools for creating an environment ideal for emotional safety, connection to you self, and imaginative play.

What would be in your backpack?

Colleen shares a story about Betty Ray, a guest on her show, to illustrate how someone might identify a need, pack their metaphorical backpack and then act on it in ritual form.

Colleen: To go back to Betty Ray, she shared one of my early episodes that she went through a breakup and she was tired of giving herself away to men and to drama. And she spontaneously grabbed her checkbook and a ring. And she went to the top of the hill in San Francisco that I don’t remember the name of. And she went up there and she wrote a check to the guy she’d just broken up with, um, you know, here’s my energy, I’m giving you. And she ripped it up. And then she wrote a check to herself and she put it in her bra. And then she, she married herself with a ring and she basically just like grabbed her checkbook and grabbed a ring. And she knew intuitively she needed these two things. Didn’t know why once the top of the hill and just, and it would, and it was new year’s I think it was, I think it was Y2K. And anyway, it was like a significant moment. She was just like, she just knew some part of her knew exactly what she needed to do. It was quick, it was powerful. Whenever she looked at the ring, she remembered, you know. Yeah, exactly what you committed to.

Colleen: I always encourage people to have a give a lot of thought as to who will be involved, you know, who do you want to have there? And sometimes we can go to, oh, I should have these people because they, blah, blah, blah. You know, or they’d be mad if I didn’t, but it’s like that kind of thinking really can’t come into it or can’t be where we end, because like, if we’re going to let them to let the vulnerability happen, to let the magic happen, to let the transformation happen, my style is to get really vulnerable. And, and that’s what I work with people to see if they want to do that too.

And, and then, and then that needs to be really safe. People, you know, who won’t talk about it later, you know, who won’t, you know, cause they’re going to know a deep part of us. Right. And then, and then also with that, anything that happens in ritual space, part of the magic and the power of it can be kind of keeping it that’s, that’s how things are passed down, you know, where it’s, you don’t know everything and it’s kind of hidden and that can of course be sort of shady and not good, but also it, it does protect the magic of it, you know? So like if we have a very powerful ritual and, and I’m there witnessing something for you, or we’ll let let’s say, it’s my ritual. If I go telling everybody which I sometimes do on my show, Hey, I had this ritual and I did this stuff and this and this and that, like I have to know that that’s, it’s opening that container.

I felt okay about doing it on my show because I felt like I’m sharing it with people who might use nobody’s written me and said, that was so when you did. Right. But, but somebody might, and that would really potentially, you know, so like, it’s just, it’s just important. I always tell people, be super thoughtful, mindful of who you invite and just anything you ever say about the ritual ever to anybody, because it, opening it up is, is, goes right to that really vulnerable place.

The thought of building my own ritual and choosing who I want to witness it, my “stuff” as I mentioned earlier, immediately comes up. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings by excluding them, so I let them in. Yikes.

I think the challenges and inspirations you encounter when you design a ritual, much like the process of creating art or building relationships, may reveal more about you, your values and your struggles, then whatever actually happened to you to make you need a ritual to get through it.

That being said, that life experience you went through (or are going through), especially if it was traumatic or disruptive, is something that others have been through, too. And those spaces where people with shared lived experiences can connect with one another are vital.

Colleen: I had a conversation on a different show about, I don’t know that affinity groups is the right word, but the group where the kind of group where everybody’s been through, the hard thing, you know, like a, like a, like a group everybody’s come out. Or, um, I was in one of, um, people who’d had a friend murdered survivors of homicide, you know, like, and like nobody, nobody gets that thing unless they’ve been through it and people can have all kinds of, you know, empathy and it just doesn’t quite get there, but people who’ve all been through it. Like, that’s, there’s a, there’s a connection there aren’t words for, and it can be incredibly healing.

Catherine: Throughout the process of a ritual or a ceremony, when do you feel the most empowered and in the zone?

Colleen: I think I feel in the zone the whole time I’m in ritual space, especially if I’m not facilitating or having to be my brain, if I can just be in my body, you know? Um, and, um, and I feel most empowered when I feel like I’m not doing it alone, I think is my answer when whatever is moving, um, maybe being witnessed by people, listening to this thing I’m sharing or watching this thing I’m doing, and they’re with me, you know, they’re a hundred percent with me. They’re like linked up with me, like energetically in this space. Right. I’m not alone. Or, or, and or if I feel like I’m like connected to spirit, to ancestors, to, you know, in my case to the goddess or all it is, well, then I feel like I’m, I’m not alone. And that, that is very, very freeing and comforting.

Catherine: How are ritual and storytelling connected?

Colleen: I like to use ritual as a place to tell the hard stories, you know, like I could have you, I could have a bunch of people over for dinner and tell them a hard story, but that might be then it’s part of a social event and it’s not all like people get it. That’s a really hard story for me to tell her if it is, it can be like, oh, that is downer for the evening. Thanks a lot. You know, like it, it doesn’t always fit like these really intensive experiences or stories that we could have that we might want to share. It’s kind of like creating a place for it, you know, say, Hey, I’m having this event, I’m going to tell this really hard story. And I want people to witness it, if you want to be seen in that or if you want to grieve it or whatever it is, you know, like, I feel like we don’t get too many chances to be real in life. Um, so we can create these intentional ones to be really real with each other.  getting to use all of the modalities, you know, a sound and, and, um, and visuals and body and costuming and movement and dance, and, you know, alters and space and time and audience, and, you know, all that stuff can be used in both mediums.

Catherine: Why do you love what you do?

Colleen: Hmm. Because it gives me and other people that I work with a chance to be real and to show up in a way that we don’t always get to in life to create spaces where we can be our fullest selves. And I think for me, creating ceremony, bleeding, designing, being in ceremonial space is being my fullest self.

Colleen: In ritual we’re often  ascribing a meaning to an object. So like I just got this ring the other day. Uh it’s, it’s a, it’s a gold ring with a circle on it and I’m wearing it on my middle finger of my right hand. And I got it cause I watched a movie with it, had a man who seemed very confident who had a lot of rings. And I was like, oh, I need a lot of rings that will do it. That will help me, which was completely ridiculous. And then I looked online and I saw this ring and I’m like, that’s a nice ring. I will know what to do when I get that ring. And I was so excited for it to come. And I was like waiting at the door when it came and I put it on and I’m like, this is so stupid. It’s just a ring. But, but, but I haven’t given it like, I mean, that’s the meaning it already had. Cause I already built that story about him. I haven’t given it any real meaning yet. Right. And I could give it a meaning like, you know, all as well or, you know, the circle is complete or I’m, I’m calm or in anything I want, I can put any kind of meaning on it. So I guess I’m saying all this, just to say that any object in our life can become, um, a focus for an intention. So, and it can be private. So I can give this ring a meaning in my mind that you will never know, but every time I see it, I will be reminded of that. And it will help me, you know, deepen into whatever that is, whatever I want it to be to stay calm or everything’s fine. Or, um, I know everything or I do know what to do. You know, the spring did tell me what to do and I know it now, you know, I can find it, I can find it out. You know, maybe that’s what this ring is now that I think about it. But, but like I said, in one of my shows, I, I can, I can have like a wonder woman DVD cover sitting up in my kitchen. That to me makes me remember that I’m wonder woman and I’m strong and I’m everything I need. And if you come to my house, you won’t know, you won’t know it, it’s private and that can happen with any object at any time, which is really good.

I’ve been working on the show for two years now. It isn’t a job. It isn’t a hobby.

It feels like an ongoing ceremony where I process emotions publicly, with my listeners as my witnesses… And when you respond to me, when there is an exchange that happens, my reaction is visceral.

It reminds me of how I felt at the artist residency at Freehold when Ang, Selena and I broke down honeycomb with our hands. My mouth flooded with saliva… it was a split second, bodily reaction I can’t explain. And I don’t even want to explain it: it was real.

Like Colleen said… it’s a body experience.

It’s an experience I have as I am crafting the narration for the show in my head walking down the street, and finally holding the mic, my breath bringing the conversation to life, with you on the other end… I feel like I’m not alone.

That feeling is both comforting and freeing… I feel both held and released.

So what is the intention of this ceremony, other than publicly proclaiming my love to an auditorium of strangers?

When Colleen started talking about dedication and talking about how folks of faith wear certain outfit to declare their commitment to God, I thought about the role of fashion and adornment for the queer community and for my own role as host of Material Feels. I call the state of mind I get in when I produce the show “pod-brain.” All my people pleasing habits and existential angsting goes out the window. I don’t feel the need to respond to texts. I cancel and move plans, guilt free, to prioritize the podcast. I feel fully alive.

It sounds like Material Feels is both a dedication and invitation for connection.

I want to come back to the earlier pull I had towards rituals of separation… And I want to re-examine it.

Maybe you are thinking about a ritual or ceremony you want to craft to move through hard emotions or a transition. Maybe you had a gut reaction to the four categories we talked about.

What if we take my initial reaction and split it apart to see what’s inside…

This exercise of going deeper reminds me of the values exercise I did inspired by glassblower Deborah and by my therapist loved ones. How underneath one value there may be a deeper core value pulling the strings and running the show.

Or, as Colleen puts it, find what needs to be moved.

Sure, there are things in my life that I need to let go of. I’m drawn to minimalism in all senses of the word, freedom, less attachment to things that drain me. Vanlife has been a fantasy for… oh I don’t know… three years now.

But when I was drawn to separation, it was a pull to separate from… well… everything.

I feel overly connected to and burdened by… everything. People, places, things, emotions, memories, worries.

Through a lot of work on myself, I understand that this is partly because I see the potential in everything, partly because I do not value my own time and energy enough, and partly because I want to be liked.

My greatest fear, other than making a mess and wasting food in the kitchen (see Pigment episode for the cashew incident) is not lions, tigers, bears or even climate change, though it probably should be that last one. My gravest fear is… disappointing people. And not being liked. And I feel totally weighed down by the gravity of people’s eventual disappointment or displeasure with me.

To add to the mix, people have rarely told me I disappointed them. This rarity has me believing that, because I’ve been busting my ass to please everyone for most of my life, it’s working! I’m close to perfect, everything is FINE, even though every three weeks I want to separate from everything AKA, ya know, just… stop existing.

I have such an ingrained struggle with allowing too much IN… being TOO dedicated to too many things.

My next thought is… I don’t think I can address these recurring thoughts through a ritual of separation. I’m not good enough at separating. Flexing my dedication muscle would be so much easier…

Thinking about the things I feel pretty good at…. Throwing on the wheel, parallel parking… I practiced it. A TON. And the first time I did those things, I was trash at it. So just because separation is messy and hard and a bit awkward, doesn’t mean I can’t start now.

I actually asked Colleen about this conundrum, and she suggested I feel it out, explore where the impulse goes. It’s such a similar process to working with the material world. I made a discovery, and now I have to play with it…I think that’s the beauty of ritual and ceremony for me. It makes the hard things in my mind tangible. When something is tangible, I feel I can understand it. And because ceremony overlaps a bit with performance and storytelling, I can play with it, share it with others, get more information. Add characters and ambiance, try it on, turn it upside down, play it backwards.

I’ve started brainstorming what a hybrid ritual of separation and dedication looks like for me, one that allows me to approach and disrupt my own patterns safely.

I think sharing hard stuff on air is important. And that’s why I wanted to share how dark my thoughts get when I’m feeling overwhelmed. While I feel a bit exposed and vulnerable, talking openly about mental health is a value I hold dear and tenet of this show.  

This episode might bring up some life transitions and hard emotions of your own. As a host, it’s my job to invite you in but also protect you a little bit: I often ask you to meet me where I’m at, I like the Material Feels community to feel called in and present. I imagine that as we’ve been talking some of your own stuff has been brought up. This is my formal invitation to check on the contents of your backpack. Add in a few symbolic objects, call in the element that aligns with your intentions, and think about where you want to go next and who you want to go there with.

And on your way there, I hope you begin to feel both held and released.

We’ll be wrapping up Season 2 this fall with the release of another EP from Associate Producer Elizabeth de Lise, who writes our underscores and composes original music for the show. Expect a teaser for Season 3, updates about my business, CXM Productions, and some fun narrative experiments from the residency at Freehold. Thank you for being on this journey with me. If you’d like to support the show, find us on Patreon, or donate to us directly via PayPal: paypal.me/cxmproductions. And now, an original song by Liz, inspired by the materials Hillary Rea used for storytelling during her first ever artist residency at the Elsewhere Living Museum in Greensboro, NC.

S3 E4 Nothing Can Prepare You for Motherhood

Episode Summary

Sometimes the cultural limits we grow up with can become our norms. Like the water we swim in, we forget to question them. What happens when we notice them and push back? Today Grace Chon shares her story of what happened when she dedicated a few moments a day to creative expression as a new mom and the photo series that went viral.

Episode Resources

 → Grace Chon: https://www.gracechon.com
 → Creativity School Podcast: https://www.creativityschoolpodcast.com
 → Grace's Photo Series: https://gracechon.com/+projects/zoey-and-jasper/
 → Shelter in Place Podcast Labs Weekender: https://www.shelterinplacepodcast.org/labs

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Chon: I'm just really glad that I, you know, didn't buy into the stories of what's possible as a mother, what's possible as a working mother, and that I've really been able to experience that like, you can be all all of you!


Sometimes the cultural limits we grow up with can become our norms. Like the water we swim in, we forget to question them. What happens when we notice them and push back? Today Grace Chon shares her story of what happened when she dedicated a few moments a day to creative expression as a new mom and the photo series that went viral. This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. 


Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Several years ago when I was considering starting this podcast, I stumbled upon a show called “Creativity School with Grace Chon”. My husband and I listened regularly on our way to the train station each morning and then I continued to listen as I walked from one foggy bus stop to the next in downtown Oakland. Grace was just starting Creativity School then, and she regularly shared what a scary journey it was for her: putting herself out there, being bold enough to think she had something relevant to say, worrying no one would listen. I could relate to all of that! And yet, she did it and she modeled for me and all her listeners how to just go for it, believe it yourself, and make it happen. But not just simply to “go for it, believe in yourself, and make it happen” - but to really get on a deep level that starting a new project is a hugely vulnerable thing. It takes deep courage and chutzpah and there's a simple reason for that. Our creative projects are actually little bits of our souls. In creating them we are letting a bit of our soul-essence come into a form that can be shared with our world. That sounds completely safe and easy, right?


Grace and I recently sat down to talk through another transition in her life - becoming a mom for the first time. We focused on what that huge transition was like for her, how she took care of herself throughout it, and how she found time to keep expressing her creative self. 


Thomas: So take us to that time in your life, what was what was going on? How did it feel to be there?


Chon: Ah, gosh, it was a really hard time in my life. Nothing can prepare you for motherhood. And I think, in hindsight, it's easy for me to see what was so hard about all of it. Aside from it just being a brand new experience, you're doing something you've never done before, the lack of sleep, the postpartum depression, all of that. But I think what I've realized is also being a type A workaholic overachiever where I prepare myself as much as I can by reading all the things. You can't do that with motherhood at all. Like nothing you read, nothing you try to prepare yourself with can prepare you for this moment and for this experience. And so I was just grappling with a lot, I think, not just physically, like, literally not sleeping, trying to take care of a baby, but emotionally, mentally… All while trying to juggle that with a career too. Because I was, you know, self-employed career as a photographer, and I only did a three month maternity leave and then I just jumped right back into work. And so it was a lot going on and I kind of felt sometimes, like I was losing myself, losing my identity as just Grace. But also, who am I as a photographer now? Where does this put my career? And it was just a lot of struggling. It was hard trying to find myself in where I fit where, you know, I fit in with this whole new role I have now as a mother,


Thomas: Totally, and I have to imagine that because I haven't been through that transition for myself. But I imagine it's got to be like… I mean of everything we could do in life, right? It's gotta be like one of the biggest transitions, especially for a first time mom.


Chon: Huge transition that you just cannot ever prepare for. Nothing can prepare you for it. And it's interesting, because I had another baby a year and a half ago and it was a completely different experience because I'd been through everything before I knew what to expect. Even just the lack of sleep didn't impact me as much as it did the first time because I knew what was coming. But when you really don't know what's ahead, transitions can be really… like when you're in that it can be so hard and challenging.


Thomas: Was there a bigger sense of need… of like faith and support and whatever faith might mean the first time through?


Chon: Yeah. [SIGHS.] What's so interesting is I am a very deeply spiritual person. And I have been my whole life, but I really dug deep into it probably five years before my son was born. And, you know, I think when things get really challenging and hard, that's really when one would think that's when you need your spiritual practice or your faith the most. And that's actually in my time when I completely just forgot it, because I was so… Oh, gosh, I was in a really dark place and I just didn't even have the time to meditate, you know… And you know, what's interesting, again, I keep comparing it to now my second child, because I had the wisdom and the experience of having gone through it, you know, I went through some very hard times with my second child as well but this time, that's when I leaned in purposefully, even more into my spirituality, leaned in even more into the meditation and leaned in even more into the faith and the trust and all of that, but it was a lesson learned with my first one because again, like I said, that's really when I wish I had been able to go more into my own faith and my own inner knowing and I just don't even think I had the bandwidth to do to do that.


Thomas: So tell me about the photos of the baby and your dog and how that… How did that happen?


Chon: So my son's name is Jasper, my dog's name is Zoey. And Zoey is a rescue dog from Taiwan. I adopted her in 2007. It's so funny because she's 15 now and things have changed so much in 15 years, because now it's pretty well known, especially in the rescue community about rescue groups that go to other countries where animal welfare is just not as sophisticated or even as top-of-mind as it is here. And so they'll bring the dogs from those countries to adopters in the United States. It's very common, you know, from Iran or other places in Asia, Korea. But in 2007, it was considered very weird. And I did not do it on purpose but I went on petfinder.com to adopt a dog and I came across this puppy staring at me, that was just the cutest thing. And it turned out she was from Taiwan and they had a volunteer and they flew her over here and so she was looking for a home. So that was Zoey. Turns out, she's like this shyest thing you'll ever meet and when we had Jasper, she wanted nothing to do with him, like at all. And so over a period of I want to say by… it took seven months for her to allow him to even touch her. And then once that happened, it was like, “Oh, this kid is really interesting. I like him.” Like, “I'm into him.” And so that was going on, and like I said, I had gone back to work when he was only three months. And I just started feeling like, really like that longing have like, my creative self. And when he was sleeping, I had this idea for taking a photo of them side by side wearing the same hat just because I thought it was cute. And so I took one when he woke up, and I put it on my Facebook page, and my sister was like, “Oh, my God, like, this is so cute. You have to shoot more of them!” And so I did, I ended up shooting 23 of them. I would work on it whenever Jasper went down for his nap. So I just get little spurts of really just getting to do whatever it is that I wanted. Because it was… I was shooting it for myself. It's not client work. It's not for anyone other than me… and it was my space and time to just be me and be as creative as I wanted. And the images just took off. They went viral. They ended up all over the world. I remember in one day I was getting interviewed on the Colombian radio and just interview after interview from websites… like on the phone, from email. And so I'm just doing this all while Jasper was I think nine or 10 months old and just juggling all the media. They were on the Today Show with Kathie Lee and Hoda. I mean, no, it was just crazy. It was… it was amazing. It was an amazing experience for me, because I felt almost like, “You're still in their Grace. You know, like you… you had the seed of an idea that spoke to you. You somehow found the time to get it out of you and just express yourself and shared it and it resonated with people and see like you're still there. You can still do all these things. It's just… it's coming from a different place now.”


This kind of self-talk is one of the things I love to see Grace model. This caring voice within her that cheers her on. Along with her vulnerability, I love this glimpse into a very simple but  profound way that Grace takes care of herself and honors where she is on her journey.

We’ll be right back. 


[SHELTER IN PLACE PROMO]


Grace and I spoke about the freedom that she gave herself in being creative for a few minutes while Jasper took his nap. She was just being herself and it was fun. I asked Grace if she thought it was the energy of that freedom, that fun, that drew people to the photo series. 


Chon: That was there and that's what people were responding to. I mean, it's really cute. Right? It's like a little, what's so cute about it is that Zoey looks exactly the same in every single photo. And then Jasper is the most sparkly little rascal you'll ever meet. And so every photo, his smile and his expression is slightly different. And then all the different hats are just different accessories, you know, and I think it was just all these pieces came together and it was just really whimsical. It was really cute. It purposefully was not… what’s the word I want to use? It wasn't like cloyingly sweet, you know, it was minimalist. It was, in my opinion, like I wanted it to be very well designed and thoughtful. And so I think a lot of these pieces sort of came together in a way people hadn't seen before and they were really responding to that.


Thomas: That's a huge thing that happened. So how did that impact your experience of becoming a mom?


Chon: You know, what's interesting is that if I'm completely honest, there were times in my darkness where I really thought, “I've ruined my life.” Like, “This is it. This is the end.” I think a lot of this was probably my postpartum depression speaking. But there were times where I was just like, “What did I do? Like I ruined my life.” Like, “My life is gonna be struggle and hardship from here on out.” I think a lot of moms and parents who have been through especially those very hard initial three months know what I'm talking about. I think we've probably all had a moment where like, we're questioning our life decisions and like, “What did I just do?” but it's completely added this richness to my life that has changed everything. Like it hasn't just changed me as a human being, that informs me as an artist, me as a photographer, me as an entrepreneur, me as a business person. And I can't remember… I feel like at one point, someone said this to me, and I wish I remember who it was and when it was. But they said that your work is only gonna get better because you're a mom and they were absolutely right. And it's not that it's like I'm specifically making work about motherhood now or anything like that, but it's better because I just have much so much more access to my emotions and my feelings, and I have a richer experience of like, just, it's - I have this whole layer of life that I've never experienced before, I think anytime you can add more experiences, to you know, all the things you've been through, you bring that with you, it becomes just a new part of you. And so I think, having gone through motherhood and transitioning to that has just made me a better artist. And I also think, you know, talking about spirituality, becoming a parent is a pathway to really healing yourself. You know, I mean, I have encountered things in me that I never would have had to access, you know, as far as wounds and healing myself, I never would have had to go there, if I never became a parent. You know, there they are mirrors. And it's been really revealing to me on exactly the places that I needed to go and heal myself so that I could show up and be the best mom that I can be. And in doing that, that's only made my work better, too. So it's just been a really interesting. I mean, interesting is not even quite… I don't even know what word to describe the journey of parenthood, and now it's informed everything that I am now, but it's been very deep and it's been very illuminating and it's been very healing.


Thomas: It kind of sounds like maybe there was a point in time when when you're when your brain was like, "Oh, I'm either a creative or a mom." Like, “There's not room for both.” And then there was sort of this bright light of, "Oh, wait, I can do both! And it can be even better. At, you know… at both”.


Chon: Yes, you just said it so perfectly. That's exactly… yes! Yes, I think it's so easy to get into very black and white thinking. You're and it's exactly what you just said it was… it was me learning that process and, and going through this realization that I can absolutely be both that both are so beautiful and so valuable. And it's like, the totality of me is what makes everything I do. Because me being a great artist is me being who I am and being authentic and expressing myself and bringing that with me into my mothering. And my mothering is about love and unconditional love and service and all these things and I bring it into my art, right? And so it was really learning how they coexist and how they really help each other. It's like a synergistic relationship.


Thomas: And it's like, it's that idea of being our fullest selves and all the realms that we're in and that not hiding our light. But that's easier said than done. Right? Am I saying that right... yeah, it's easier said than done. Because it's so there's so many things in our minds, especially as women we get socialized that being a mother has to be a certain thing we get told you can't possibly make money in being an artist or creative. Like there's just all of this, like background noise that I know in my life, I've felt like I've overcome a lot of limiting thoughts only to realize that they're actually running through my system and affecting me at a deeper level. It's like a constant dropping, "Oh, it's still there." "Oh, it's still there." You know, because it's like the water we swim in and we're raised with so it's an I think it's a… kind of an ongoing process.


Chon: It is. I've experienced the same. I think it's really becoming aware of what you're thinking and how you're feeling and exposing what those very limiting beliefs are. And I think for me every time I have tried to expand what's possible for myself I just find more of them you know, that's what I just feel like it's an ongoing thing but I enjoy this process. I love this process. I love getting to know who I am. I love finding where I'm holding myself back and I love knowing that all of it's an illusion like I can be anything and anyone that I want to be and it's the only thing that's really stopping me is my own limiting thoughts of what I think is possible. And like you said we're swimming it in and and so cultivating the awareness to even know what you're swimming in and knowing you have the power and the choice to change what that is. I think it's fun. I love you know, I say like I really… I have no desire to do things like bungee jumping and skydiving because I think going within myself is so much more exciting. It's… I really enjoy it.


Thomas: I think an important piece of my life I think But I've learned to do is to is to create a, an atmosphere for myself that counterbalances the water I swim in. So I try to surround myself by things that are very meaningful to me. And people that speak in ways that inspire me and you and your show and having you in my life through listening to your show is just been one of those things. It's like a pillar of… you're just so positive. And so just everything I just, I just love you and your work!


Chon: Thank you! Oh, you just made my day! Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, I think that specific to the creative journey, it is so unknown, it's like motherhood, it's like, you can't plan for you. You're so purposefully putting yourself on a path where everyone has told you it's not possible. We have so much surrounding us, the water around us tells us that the life of creativity is so not possible. And as if it is possible, and it's worked out for people, it's because they're really special. And it's so not true and so that's… I'm so happy to hear that this show speaks to you. Because that's just what I want people to realize. It’s all not true. They're all just stories, and we can change them.


Thomas: Yeah, and there are so many ways that we can be creative in life, like it doesn't creativity doesn't have to be, you know, writing or drawing or singing, or… it's just astonishing to me how creative people are, in general. And then we… somehow it's become like a thing that we're not supposed to own or I don't know, it's just but it feels like it's almost like our, our soul essence. It's like, it's like, you know, because we're all going to create what we're going to create and if we're bold enough, we're going to create great stuff, and it's going to be unique, it's gonna be like our soul speaking.


Chon: 1,000% agree with you! I’m like nodding my head so hard. Yeah, I really think, again, it's like we've limited what that is. And I agree with you. I think it is the energetic imprint that we put on the world and it's our very own unique energetic imprint. And really another way of saying that it is our soul's expression. And I think the reason why people who want to be creative, and just for some reason feel like they can't be the reason why it is such a wound, it's painful, is because we are all creative. Literally, we all have this soul, we all have this energy that wants to self-express and to hold back something so… it's the foundation of being human. How wounded are we to say that we're not creative when that is what we're here to do? We are here to self-express and be unique. And, and then suddenly people are saying, “Oh no, but that's not valuable. You can't make money doing it. It's only a hobby. And only special people can do it anyway…” Like you're denying something so basic and foundational to every single human being out there.


Thomas: Well, it's so it's such a treat to have you here and to hear you tell the story in real time and to get to talk to you in real time.


Chon: Oh, it's such a delight to be on your show. I love your show. I love everything you're doing. I love, you know, your heart for everything. I can feel it and I can see it and so it's just such a delight to connect with you and be on your podcast. Thank you so much. 


Creativity School with Grace Chon is a wonderfully self-reflective exploration of Grace’s journey as a photographer, bridging into being a podcaster and more recently bridging into being a creative coach. What I love about Creativity School is how transparent Grace is on the show, how she talks herself through each transition and lets us in on all of the vulnerability and the uncertainty. Recent episodes touch on when people don’t like your work and releasing the fear of failure. There’s a link to Creativity School in the show notes. Check it out. You’ll be glad you did. 


Grace Chon is a commercial animal photographer, recognized for the highly expressive portraits of animals she shoots for ad agencies, pet brands, magazines and more. She's also the author of two books, a Creative Transformation Coach, and the host of Creativity School podcast, where she guides people on how to share their unique gifts and talents with others. Our music is by Terry Hughes. You can follow us on IG and Twitter at shamepinata. You can reach us through the contact page at our website, shamepinata.com. And you can subscribe to the podcast on Radio Public, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite player. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S3 E3 Coming Out as a Rite of Passage (Nick Venegoni)

Episode Summary
It can take great bravery to come out of the closet, to let the people we know the best know us on that deep, real level - especially if knowing the true us might be hard for them. There isn't a commonly held rite of passage for coming out as queer, but that doesn't mean we can't create one.

Episode Resources

 → Queer Spirit Podcast: https://queerhealingjourneys.com/podcast/

 → The Self-Confident Queer: A Free Guide for Queer Folks To Build Your Self-Worth: https://queerhealingjourneys.com/confident/

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Venegoni: You know, even though I feel like I was very lucky and very privileged to, when I did come out, like, my family did accept me for the most part compared to other people, but it's still there's... you know, a misunderstanding and a challenge there that it's not really like celebrated.

It can take great bravery to come out of the closet, to let the people we know the best know us on that deep, real level, especially if knowing the true us might be hard for them. There isn't a commonly held rite of passage for coming out as queer, but that doesn't mean we can't create one. 

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Joining me today are returning guests Nick Venegoni and his husband Thom. Nick and Thom joined us way back in season 1, when they gave us a look into their handfasting ceremony, a wonderfully full-bodied ceremony which invited their entire community to weave a love spell together. Check the show notes for a link to that episode if you’d like to know more! Nick and Thom also joined me in an exploration of favorite questions to ask my guests: What is a rite of passage you wish you'd had? As queer folk, we shared the experience of coming out and spent some time thinking through what a coming out ceremony might look like. Nick, who works with the deeper questions around queerness and spirituality as a therapist and coach, led us off.

Venegoni: Yeah, so a ritual passage ceremony I wish I could have had would be something along the lines of a coming out ceremony. You know, I think that for so many queer people that not only is it not honored, but it's something to be ashamed of or to hide. And so I think that there's... there's a big opportunity that is lost there. And that it… not only you lose an opportunity for feeling proud or feeling empowered about who you are and the way you show up in the world, but it can for many people just create a wounding around shame. And that's part of why I, through my therapy practice and my coaching practice, have created, you know, some workshops and processes for people to be able to go back to repair those experiences, to maybe feel more empowered and to carry that power forward into their life.

Thom: Yeah, I would... I mean, my whole thing is I wish that nobody had to come out. 

Thom: That because if all of these forms of sexual expression are just… are natural, which is what we're just in denial of as a society, and as a culture. We don't ask straight people to come out. So I hope we get to a place where nobody has to “come out”. That we somehow learn how to make it as organic a process as supporting the psychosexual development of heterosexuality. And queer people, of course have to go through the process of being enculturated as heterosexual and we have to have like two brains. And it's almost like when we come out, we're sort of saying, "Okay, I'm kind of tired of like being putting on the other brain for you. I now know I need you to put on a different brain for me." Like people don't understand that like, "Well, I have already been struggling and suffering to make you comfortable. So when you say 'I am now uncomfortable', it's like, oh, you have had one moment of discomfort and I have had a lifetime of pain." 

Thom brings up a great point here. It seems to me that the dominant/louder/more powerful groups in our society routinely ask members of other groups to conform to their standards. We see this with divisions related to sexual orientation, race, and religion. What Thom describes is something known often as code switching, when individuals feel they need to speak or act to match the norms of a group outside their own. Another thing that can happen is that the dominant culture can also try to pigeonhole members of other groups to make them easier to categorize, which ultimately of course dehumanizes them and erases the chance to know the fullness of each person.

Thom: People's sexual preference and sexuality can also transform. You know, I mean, there are... You know, for the most part, there's a central tendency of like, “these people are just these people”. But there are people who do travel through a spectrum and back again in their life. There are lots of women who start out getting married, having kids, and then they decide they're lesbian. And, you know, that's way more common among women than it is men. But there are men who like get married, and they feel like they're one way and then they change their mind, or, I don't know... I just feel like if you're like 12 years old, and you try to tell your parents like, "Oh, I like my same gender" then they're going to start creating your experience for you, instead of understanding how to support your own exploration of what that means. Just the way that heterosexual people, it's like, well, you're going to date a lot, you're going to meet people, you're going to figure out what you like, you're going to, you're going to go through a series of relationships. You might go through a series of marriages. I think we just need to grow a lot, like as a society, not as individuals. But our cultural story, like our shared cultural story, I think needs to grow and mature and become a lot more sophisticated. But that said, there are a lot of people who do have wounding around coming out or not being able to come out or not being able to seen or witnessed in the right way that you know, can be... You can go back into those moments and heal them and heal that moment in time and, you know, really change the present. Not change the facts, but change the energy which might be limiting you in ways that you don't understand yet, you know...

Thomas: I think the closest thing that I had to a coming out ceremony was - and I think, I think I might have shared this with you, Nick, I don't remember - that the stagecraft teacher in my college who built a stage… well, she built a stage, she built the door and we… a closet - she built the closet! And we all got to come out of the closet, you know, in a big line at a coming out day dance, the Mary B. James coming out day dance. And at that dance, the queer people, the self-identified queer people, were wearing a purple flower and the allies were wearing pink. So everybody was, like, trying to figure out what color everybody was wearing. And, like, under dance lights where purple and pink kind of look the same under dance lights…. so it was really crazy! But it was like an actual celebration, because when I came out to my parents, it wasn't such a good… it was a really hard moment.

Thom: Well, I didn't really come out to my family, they just sort of figured it out and I never corrected their assumptions, which was a nice way of doing it. But they also didn't bring it up and make it hard for me so that I could just then, like talk about boys that I liked when I was in high school. And you know, as I got older, they weren't, like, surprised that I was dating men. But I've always been very untraditional in a lot of ways so they weren't really expecting me to be traditional about relationships either. But when I came out to my grandmother once, and I realized like, oh, I've never actually just told her that I'm gay, you know? And one day, I went to go visit her with a friend of mine, a female friend, a woman friend of mine. And she was like, "Oh, is this your girlfriend?" And she thought maybe she was expecting... it was so weird. She's like, "Are you expecting?" And I was like, No... I was like, Grandma... actually, I called her Nana... I was like, "No, Nana, I'm gay." Like, "I don't date women." And she just got quiet for a moment and went blank and all she said was, "I don't know... I don't know what you mean." And that was like... I was like, "Okay, she's not ready to go there." She's not freaking out. You know, she's not crying and world has ended...

Venegoni: It's like you just spoke Klingon to her.

Thom: Yeah, she was just like, "What? I don't know what to do with this information." So then we just got to have the same relationship we always ever had. And I got to have the moment of being like, Okay, I have informed you and I'm glad that there's no you know, drama that I need to sweep up and we'll just carry on. And, you know, she never made that assumption again which was good. So...

Thomas: Is that something that you, that either of you have ever thought about, doing any kind of retroactive… well, actually, sorry, let me go back, Nick, to something that you said about workshops and practices that you share with your… around coming out. Is there anything that you could share with us in this venue of like, how those work or what you do, or what support you offer?

Venegoni: Yeah. So, you know, I've been studying for a number of years at a school in Berkeley called the Foundation of the Sacred Stream, which teaches a variety of classes in transformative studies and energy medicine and that kind of thing. And one of the classes that they offer was called Initiations of the Sacred Masculine. They do another one for women called Initiations of the Sacred Feminine. And before I even took that class, I was thinking about wanting to do some kind of workshop for queer folks but I wasn't really sure. And so it was after that class, where we sort of talked about the... you know, what we're talking about but just around, like gender identity, not so much about sexuality. But the way that when a boy becomes a man, or when a girl becomes a woman, you know, that transition in adulthood based on your gender... and how in a lot of older cultures and tribal cultures, they still have processes around that. But in modern Western culture, they don't have that. And, you know, so through that class, we went through a series of processes to help us see that and understand that and the effects of that... of not having that and what can we do to reclaim that. And so I took that as a template of inspiration into what I created, which I just created this course, and it's called Reclaim the Power of You, but it's specifically for queer folks around reclaiming power that was lost during that period of coming out. You know, when people may have, you know, disowned you or abandoned you or rejected you or judged you for that process. And so there's a... you know, it's... it's a several week process that I take people through of exploring that and understanding that and then getting through to a point through this spiritual process that I've created using guided meditation and other tools like that to help people reclaim that power that was lost through that experience of coming out which to me is a kind of initiation, you know. So the I... all of these things... you know, I think that, you know, a big part of what your podcast is about, you know, in a way can be framed as an initiation, which I think of initiations as these gateways that we have the opportunity to walk through and transform ourselves in our lives. And those gateways hold power, you know, so it's a way to sort of step into, you know, a new experience of who you are. Whether that's like, I'm no longer a child, I'm an adult now, you know, whether that's through your gender, your sexuality, or your biology, or you know, whether that's... In Christianity, there's confirmation, you know, whether that's a... you know, a vision quest that you know, someone goes on or anything like that. I think they're all different opportunities for initiation that can be like a ritual or just a process that could feel like a hardship or an ordeal. Sort of a growth spurt in a way where you have an opportunity to really grow and step into a new level of power in terms of who you are in the world and carrying that forward in your life.

I love that! Framing our life transitions, whenever, however they come, as initiations. Initiations that lead us through gateways that hold power. That's why I think we should really honor our transitions, mark them, make a big deal out of them - at least in our own hearts. Because these are the gateway moments in our lives. When we go through something like a divorce, or a we get a diagnosis, or we walk away from an old career, or we come out - these experiences may not be comfortable or fun, but they allow us to step into a new experience of ourselves. We'll be right back.

[MUSIC]

It's wonderful to have you here! Be sure to check out our new series called “Daily Magic for Peace” Daily Magic for Peace offers a quick and simple way to focus your intentions, prayers, and actions toward healing the crisis in Ukraine. Find the show as a separate podcast on your favorite player. If you feel like you've done all you can but still want to do more, join us in doing some Daily Magic for Peace.

Thom: I turned 50 a year ago. I just had my 51st birthday but a part of my 50th birthday... we did a ceremony, sort of a... like a power-retrieval type ceremony where we did go back and look... heal like specific woundings from when I was younger so that all of that energy would then collapse into the present and I would then move forward into this next part of my life without that energetic disturbance or that energetic attractor, if you will. And so that was a situation where it wasn't specifically related to coming out because I didn't have any coming out wounding, but we did do a ceremony where we went back to deal with a past, you know, scenario and then heal that in the present and that was really eye-opening and amazing and don't know why I never thought of it before.

Venegoni: Yeah, I mean, I think that's just another example of what I'm talking about of these... these demarcations that you can use as a way to sort of propel yourself forward into, you know, a better place or a new phase in your life. Yeah.

Thom: Because I wanted my fifties to be my power years and I thought, well, we better go in and clean up the past a little bit. And it was interesting how... I mean, it wouldn't say I felt lighter but I would say that I had like clusters of memories around some of this old trauma that all just kind of... like I sort of forgot that like, I forgot to behave in all of the ways that I behave because I'm constantly trying to just take care of the trauma or cope with the wounding. And it's like, oh, okay, well, that's not there anymore so my energy can now go to the things that I really desire, you know. And be it really, really in the present with what I want to be in need to be in alignment with right now. And I can see how that could work for coming out also, you know, some sort of a power-retrieval ceremony, where you, you know, go back into that space and, like reclaim your power. Because what happens is, of course, we gave up power somewhere to someone, and we forgot that that's what happened, but energetically, that's still the reality. These are great questions. You know, most people… most people don't ask us these things everyday. So I don't, I don't often think about... about it.

We don't talk about these things enough. And we can create opportunities to go back and reclaim our power. We only need our creativity and an openness to explore time beyond the linear. Underneath any trauma or wounding, we are still whole and we can find our way back to our true selves. Ceremony and community can help. I'm so grateful to have had the opportunity to sit down again with both Nick and Thom and also grateful to be able to share their wisdom with you. 

Nick Venegoni & his husband Thom live in San Francisco, California and have been together for 15 years. Nick is the host of the The Queer Spirit podcast and a sound healer practitioner. Be sure to check the show notes and download a copy of his free guide to help queer folks build self-worth, called “The Self-Confident Queer”. Thom is a mystic and ritualist in the school of Natural and Ancestral Witchcraft and co-creator of the Trees and Stars open coven. Our music is by Terry Hughes. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast player to be notified when new episodes are released. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S3 E2 Blood Magic (Erica Sodos)

Episode Summary

Today we dive into the sacred blood rites of menarche and menopause in a conversation with Magician and Menstrual Educator Erica Sodos.

Episode Resources

 → Erica Sodos: http://ericasodos.com
 → Crimson Wisdom (Colleen's Moon Lodge Book): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07R1VJ8HQ

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Before we start today’s episode, I’d like to place us in time for a moment. Today is March 3, 2022. It’s been seven days since Russia launched a full-scale assault on Ukraine. I just want to acknowledge that this is a lot. It’s a lot of heartbreak. It’s a lot of feeling helpless. And it’s a lot of fear. What you are feeling matters. So I invite you to pause for a second and notice what you are feeling. Notice your body, your breath, your heart. And I invite you to join me as I ring a bell for everything that is happening [RINGS BELL]. Thanks and now here’s today’s show. 

The culture we are born into hands us a template for what it means to be human, what it means to progress through the various stages of life. This template may tell us that some transitions are good and some are bad, but what if everything is mutable? What happens when we feel empowered to name our own reality?

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. 

When you hear the phrase “rites of passage” what do you picture? A bunch of people gathered together, maybe outdoors? Is there a fire? Is there a ceremonial feel? Is the concept of anthropology lurking around somewhere perhaps? This might be what you see and it also might totally NOT be what you see, but it’s interesting, isn’t it, that phrase rites of passage evokes a certain something.

Today we’re going talk about one of the things it most commonly evokes, the idea of coming of age. We’re also going to talk about another rite of passage that doesn’t always get spoken about about in a positive way, the time of menopause. 

The coming-of-age time when we’re anywhere from 9-13 brings physical changes and hormonal changes and brings on the start of menstruation for some of us. And some number of years later that menstruation will stop. It might stop naturally or through surgery or illness. These are two points in life that we’re going to talk about today: the beginning of bleeding which is sometimes called menarche and the end of bleeding which is usually called menopause. These are potent times in our lives and they are worthy points to stop and reflect on the full-body changes they bring - and perhaps even identity changes they bring.

These are life changes that are often associated with women’s bodies and women’s experience. However, many people with menstrual cycles do not identify as women. They might identify as trans men, transgender masculine, gender fluid, or not identify with any gender at all. This arena of talking about the blood is one I have worked in for many years and I am constantly striving to open the circle and welcome more people into the rites of passage we can build around the blood. I think it’s really important as well to broaden the education of the non-bleeding people around us to what happens during the moontime, what happens during the bleeding part of the cycle both physiologically and energetically and all the ways we can celebrate and honor that.  

The format of today’s episode is a conversation I had with Erica Sodos. Erica was on the show last season speaking about the magic of everyday life, which makes sense because Erica is a magician. Erica is also a menstrual educator. She published a zine for many years called Moonflow, which included thoughtful articles, tips, and even a comic strip about the power of the blood. I call Erica my blood sister because she’s been right there along my own journey to learn to love my menstrual cycle and to deepen into the power and mystery it afforded me.

These days we’re both nearing or in menopause, so our conversation about the blood was held within that context. It was also held within the framework of the NeoPagan tradition of honoring the Triple Goddess, commonly known as Maiden, Mother, Crone - each of which symbolizes a phase in the life cycle. If you’ve never understood what could be useful, important, or even good about the menstrual cycle, I invite you to give today’s episode a listen.

Thomas: I wanted to ask you what's a rite of passage you wish you’d had.

Sodos: So I wish I had a ton of rite of passages and I wish I learned that concept when I was younger. But as you could probably guess, the rite of passage I really wish I had was my first moontime! Definitely. I think it would have shaped me as a… almost like a different person. I mean, it would have taught me to love my body and my blood and I wouldn't have had to figure that out decades later. You know? So, I'd say it's my moontime. That's such a… that could be such a beautiful ritual.

Thomas: Have you gone back to do any kind of retroactive anything about that?

Sodos: I have done it on my own but not to the extent that I know you have because I love how you'll actually like, recreate it with your friends and community. You're amazing with your right of passages. But I think a number of years ago I did something. But now I'm in perimenopause and so at this point, I'm entering a whole new phase and my age. It's scary. It's different.

Thomas: I think it's never too late to go back and do the the first ones, the older ones.

Sodos: Say a woman is seventy so she hasn't bled for a while. She could still celebrate her first moon time? 

Thomas: Yeah, sure…

Sodos: Really? Even though she's already been through all these different cycles in her life. And I guess, I guess you're saying you can do it, you feel that you can do a rite of passage whenever, like even if it was a while ago?

Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it has a different effect, I think, than doing it at the moment. But I believe that ritual transcends space and time and I've been in a post… a retroactive menarche ceremony with one of my blood mothers who got a big room of 30 women together who were all, you know, in their 30s 40s 50s… I don't know how old everybody was… But we went and we did a meditation… we went back… we met somebody… I don't know, it was a long time ago, we just… it was like shamanic meditation when we went back and we got the teaching and we experienced sort of a, generic version of like, “This is how it could have been when you got your blood”. And we had this incredible teaching and learning and then we had… the woman who led it, her mother was… They did like a… what I've heard called an angel tunnel, where everybody one at a time walked down, a passageway made by the women. The women were standing in two lines and you walked through the two lines and it was kind of like being birthed and once you came out, you were… that was your transformation you came out in you were a woman and you were welcomed to womanhood by the Grandmother, who is the facilitator’s mother who was just amazing and she gave us like a red necklace and she gave us this incredible hug. And she was like, “Welcome to womanhood!” It was so… it was so amazing, because the way… It was Georgette Star who who did it, and the way that she held it all together, and it was… she made it such a sacred experience. And it was all for women who, you know, were not 12 or 13, it was all for grown women to go back and connect to the moment of the, you know, the Maiden. And it was, it was just transformational and so I know that it can transcend space and time. It helps if you have a really good ritual practitioner can who can run it for you.

Sodos: That sounds like magic, like talk about magic. Like I'm feeling that… that you… Well, that's the same idea like when I was in therapy and the therapist would have me go back to an experience from when I was little and say, you know, I was attacked, or my parents were out of control or whatever and then she would be like, “Who would protect you?” And then I did all these meditations where there was this bear… this mama bear would come and like took me away until all the fighting was still going on, but the mother was… And I think that that's that same idea. It's like almost like neural… changing the neuroplasticity in the brain, right? 

Thomas: Right.

Sodos: I mean, you're going back. And you're reclaiming this experience, whether it's trauma, or a rite of passage, which couldn't be trauma if it's meant a certain way. [LAUGHS] And like getting your moontime and then you kind of recreated it and then in a way the timeline changes. Right? Did you feel for you and other women like the timeline changes?

Thomas: Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Like the historical events that happened in my life when I did really get my blood when I was 12 didn't change but yet the part of me… the 12 year-old who's always living in me now has had a very different experience… had like the original experience and then had this other amazing experience which kind of weaves together.

Sodos: So you became more whole, in a way. 

Thomas: Exactly.

Sodos: Because that 12 year-old who grew up who was fractured or whatever you want to say never truly connected to her power or whatever it was. But now she's had a different timeline within you, so it makes you different now, is that kind of…

Thomas: Exactly. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. 

Sodos: And that was the idea of what the therapist was doing with me. 

Thomas: Right.

Sodos: Right? Taking me back to the wounding and then… God,  it’d be kind of amazing, wouldn't it, to just do that…I mean, it takes a long time to just go through your life and try to reclaim all those bad experiences?

Thomas: Heal each thing…

Sodos: Be like, “Okay, this one was last week…” No, just kidding.

[MUSIC] 

Thank you for spending a few minutes of your day with us! If you’d like to learn more about this whole blood as sacred thing, check out my book “Crimson Wisdom”. It’s available now on Kindle and tells the story of what a modern day Red Tent can look like. Check the show notes for a link. 

Thomas: I'm in menopause… I’m postmenopausal now so it's like I'm in that phase and that's a whole other rite of passage that I'm… I don't know that I'm ready to honor that yet. [LAUGHS]

Sodos: How long has it been since you've bled? 

Thomas: Almost two years.

Sodos: You haven't bled at all, not even spotting? And you're younger than me. How old are you?

Thomas: Yeah, I know I stopped when I was 48. And I'm almost 50.

Sodos: Wow. I was getting mine like every… constantly… like bleeding all the time like, like just tons of… like a lot of blood. But I think that's… they say you could either get non or get a lot and wow, two years… you, have you done a Crone ceremony yet?

Thomas: No, I just haven't felt ready. I haven't felt like I'm still grieving - and I'm not actively grieving, that's why it's taking so long - grieving that not having the blood time and not having the, you know, that deep pull, that richness. Even though a lot of times when it came when I had it, I was like, “Yeah, okay, I don't really want to go there.” And I was like, “It’s gonna go away, you're gonna really miss it, you're gonna be really sad, you better do it!” And so I would fight it, you know, a lot, then. And then it was like, okay, now it's gone and I'm in that bitter place where I don't want to hear people talking about how great it is, because I'm angry I don't have it. 

Sodos: …how great menstruating is? 

Thomas: Yeah, which a lot of people don't say that, but sometimes people do say that. 

Sodos: Most people hate it. Yeah. As you know, hence the magazine.

Thomas: Or I’ll say, “I’m postmenopausal”, or, you know, and they'll be like, “Oh, thank God”. And I'm like, “No, actually, my story is really different and…” But so I'm still processing, I’m still processing it. But I'm going to have a Croning ceremony or something of that nature at some point.

Sodos: I think, like… I hear what you're saying, because for people like us who worked, would it be inaccurate… I mean I don’t want to like speak for you, but like, I'll just say we and tell me if I'm projecting. We worked to honor our blood. Like it was something that we wanted to be sacred. So when I say I'm scared, I'm scared to lose my blood. I think that's what you're saying. Like… Now did you have side effects and stuff? Did you have…

Thomas: Yeah, I've had a lot. I've had a really hard time with hot flashes. They're… I think they're getting better. They're getting better or I'm getting more used to them.

Sodos: Still?

Thomas: Yeah, I'm still getting them. And the worst part, gosh.. I would get these really bad ones for I'd be on transit because I used to commute an hour and a half to work and I would have, you know, my clothes, and then a sweater and then a jacket and then like a hat and whatever and then my bag and my you know, and I'm on BART or crammed in a bus or whatever, crammed on BART, whatever. Then I’d have a hot flash in the middle of all that and it was like…and  sometimes I thought I was going to pass out or throw up or something. 

Sodos: Have you read books about menopause like to help you?

Thomas: Yes, I… I… yes. Before I was postmenopausal, I read a lot of books and then when I was actually on my honeymoon, I was reading a book about menopause. 

Sodos: So you were still bleeding. 

Thomas: I was still bleeding then, yeah.

Sodos: It's funny that you read them so early and now you're in it and you're going, “No” The only one I have is about a year ago, I bought the Susun Weed book. Yeah, she's so cool, Susun Weed, and I like that book. She talks about the Croning. I wonder too… even for someone like you who works on this stuff, the word Crone is very loaded. Do you think… do you not …do you like the word Crone? Like, do you feel like a Crone? Because you don't look like a Crone… stereotypically.

Thomas: It’s interesting because… So when I was first into the blood mysteries, I started… I got really fascinated with the idea of the Crone and I started offering classes for women who were much older than me to tell them how much to love the Crone time. 

Sodos: [LAUGHS] 

Thomas: And I knew that I was like, really in a weird place teaching that, right? Because I was just like, “I can't tell you anything about it obviously, but I’m going to get you together, I'm going to tell you what I've read about how great it is and then you're going to, you know, tell me, you know, insane or whatever… And the women would get really inspired by what I would say. But what I realized was that, because I was in like my 30s, I thought that postmenopausal was like, “a group of women”. And so and as I worked with them, I had women of all ages coming to these workshops, and I realized I had women who are 50 or 40. Well, maybe 50, late 40s, early 50s… and I had women who were 80, and they were in a completely different phase of life and they were all in one bucket in my head because I was naive enough to not understand any nuance about this yet. So when I hear the word Crone I always think of it of course, as an old woman, and I don't feel like I'm there yet. But then it's like, there's lots of stages in life. Right? And there's the menopause and post menopause. But I don't know that it has to be the Crone right, then. I mean, it could be. I don't know that I'm ready. I think I will probably call it a Croning ceremony when I do it, but I don't feel like I'm worthy of being a Crone yet. I haven't earned that yet.

Sodos: I think yeah, I'm also afraid for my blood to stop. And it kind of reminds me of a relationship. Like, I used to do this thing where when I was in a relationship I would only focus on what was wrong… when I was younger… what was wrong with the person and then when I was out of it, I would focus on what was good. So it was like a way to be miserable as much as I could. You know what I’m saying? I don’t know if you ever did that, but… So, but like it's like with our menstruation… it's like… because we've worked hard to focus on what we love. Yeah, it's like, but now it might be a good time to focus on what you didn't like about it because then you can…you know what I mean? It's like a relationship like, “You're gone. I'm not getting you back in this life. So you were kind of annoying. Remember those cramps I used to have… and all the time?” and I don't know…

Thomas: Well, I am really grateful that I've had, I call them my blood sisters and my blood mothers and my blood grandmothers. You've been an incredible blood sister for me all this time and then I've had women who've been older than me who've been, you know, in more of the teacher role than like the companion role and, and their teachers have been my blood grandmothers . I've just been so blessed to have had this amazing group of women around me. So… and those are the women I will turn to as I go to celebrate my Croning whenever I do that. 

Sodos: Yay!

Thomas: Oh, my goodness. It's been so amazing to talk to you. I'm so glad we got to do this. Thank you so much. 

Whether the concept of the blood as sacred and important is part of your everyday life or something you hold a little ways away from yourself and look at with suspicion, I am so glad you joined us today. What’s a rite of passage you wish you’d had? What’s a hard experience you’d like to reclaim? As the author of your own story, you have the power to name, rename, and even reimagine the events of your past. Ritual, ceremony, and community are tools that can help you with this important work. 

Erica Sodos is a magician, speaker, emcee, psychic entertainer, one of only a handful of female mentalists in the world. She is an avid lover of nature, a dedicated vegan, an environmentalist, and an activist and tour guide at an animal sanctuary. You can find out more about Erica and see examples of her magic at ericasodos.com. Our music is by Terry Hughes. You can follow us on IG and Twitter at shamepinata. You can reach us through the contact page at our website, shamepinata.com. And you can subscribe to the podcast on Radio Public, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite player. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S2 E10 Finding Your Own Magic (Erica Sodos)

Episode Summary

Remember what it felt like the first time you saw something truly amazing, something that blew your mind? Like the first time you saw a movie in the theater as a kid or someone showed you the constellations? Magician and mentalist Erica Sodos helps us learn to rediscover that sense of wonder, awe, and amazement.

Episode Resources

 → Erica Sodos: http://ericasodos.com

 → Erica's Routine with Her Mom (Momma is Magic): https://youtu.be/0gyuos4waqk?si=bvm47N9JBpkZ1Djp

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript


Sodos: And literally, I swear, the tree was my bestie after that. And now… it’s like, if I don't walk there... Today I didn't walk over there and I thought, “Oh, I haven’t seen my friend!” You know? And I’m not just a tree hugger, I kiss them. I love to kiss them and get in there. Do you do that? Do you hug trees? I love it. 


Remember what it felt like the first time you saw something truly amazing, something that blew your mind? Like the first time you saw a movie in the theater as a kid or someone showed you the constellations? Maybe when you discovered the best superhero ever? What if it could be possible to keep hold of that sense of wonder, awe, and amazement?


This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Believe it or not, that sense of childlike wonder is a place we can still go, even as adults. It can be a little more complicated to get there (b/c adulting), but I'm a firm believer that joy, awe, and wonder are foundational components to living a healthy life. And what’s more, they are essential skills if we want to build our own unique ceremonies to honor, appreciate and acknowledge the many ways we grow and change as we move through life. There are huge industries cashing in on our need for expansiveness and joy (think Disney, Hollywood, and gaming)and there are also simpler ways to find magic closer to home in everyday life. Slowing down, being alive to possibility, and noticing exquisite beauty in little moments are a few examples.


Today we will be talking magic. What is it? Where do we find it? And how do we spell it? We'll be focusing on many different types of magic, from stage magic to real magic and how they overlap. Our guide for this conversation is Erica Sodos, one of a small number of female stage magicians in the US who is also a mentalist. I've known Erica for almost 20 years and I can tell you that she truly walks her talk. She finds magic all around her in every moment and she’s inspirational. I'd like to invite you to listen in on a conversation Erica and I recorded about a year ago, when we were all still in lockdown.


[MUSIC]


Thomas: You are somebody in my life who has helped me connect with magic like really nobody else in your own unique, totally unique way, and I've always wanted to ask you, and I'm glad to have on the chance, how do you find magic in life? Like, what's your thread? What's your connection? There's several kinds of magic that you're connected to. So I want to know, how are you connected? What is that like?


Sodos: First, I want to say that means so much to me, Colleen, for you to say that because as you know, I think you're one of my wisest friends. So that means a lot. Yes, so how do I find magic in my life? Well, you know, it's funny because I look for it, right? I look for magic. And so because I'm looking, I also find it. And I believe that everything has energy and everything is connected. I guess you could call me an animist, right? So everything is alive. I also like to sometimes call myself a biophiliac, which is a lover of life. So I find magic because I love all… everything that exists. And so being outside... and I understand that not everybody can get outside... so even looking outside or having houseplants. I counted recently. We have 39 houseplants and so… they are these beings are taking energy from the sun and they're living. And then of course, there's the spirits in our house, house spirits... and then, because I know we're all home a lot, and we feel kind of isolated, but I believe that life is all around us. So... and then animals of course.


Erica has a cat named Princess Patches Precious Poppycock McGee and at the time of our interview, Erica had a daily practice of drawing a sigil in her wet cat food every morning. A sigil is a symbol considered to have magical power. We recorded our interview on a Sunday.


Sodos: Like today I did a sun because it's Sunday that we're recording. I made a sun sigil, so everything can be fun and to me it's fun too to do that. What else do I do? Correspondences! So for people who want to get involved you know and find more magic, like learning correspondences. I mean, everyday like, is it like Monday… Oh and the moon cycles, of course we share that. You know, that's another way to harness magic. What sign is the moon in? What cycle is she in? But the correspondences: so Monday is the moon and Tuesday is Mars and Wednesday is Mercury and so that they're different deities and so you could get into that energy and learn the correspondences. And foods of correspondences! So what we eat has energy and what we wear. And, you know, it's…so that's another ways and that then you find meaning and like everything is connected. Oh, and then magic. I mean, I think working on magic alone, you know, that's how I connect to magic. And magic connects, performing magic connects me to real magic and ritual in so many ways. First of all, it's archetypal. So I mean, I have... I'm super into Tarot and I have like... but I put the cards everywhere. I don't look at them so much always, like telling the future but more as meditative tools, like I put them on altars and things. And the Magician archetype is so powerful. And a long time ago, the magicians would combine trickery with their performance to you know, to create change to help people believe, right? They... so they would combine trickery with real magic. And so I love that. So that helps me and also having an idea of something I want to do, like a magician goes, "Oh, I'd like to make that levitate." And then we have to think of how we're going to make that levitate. And so that's magic. And then the third most powerful is how it affects people, is when people see magic. They're in an altered space. And I didn't say that, Colleen, that's the biggest that's also another way I find magic is being present and meditating. And, like I have this…  every time I blow out a candle now by where we have all these plants, the smoke, the way it intermingles with the leaves of the - you know what I'm talking about, right - the way it intermingles with the leaves. I mean, it's pure magic.


Thomas: I want to go back for a second, you just said several kinds of magic. So I'm going to try to say them back and correct me because I'm thinking that you said that there's the magic of connecting to spirit. And then the magic of performing magic as being a magician. And the magic of how the receiving of the magician’s work affects your audience, when their mind is blown and they're like, "Wow". And then a fourth kind where you're seeing magic in everyday life, like little magical moments that are just that just blow your mind.


Sodos: You know, it's funny, because... so I think there's a lot of overlap, because, and the first one, I might call it, I think it's cool. You said connection to spirit, but it's like... it could be connection to plants. So I guess you could say plants have spirit, not looking at it like there's one spirit, like, Great Spirit, but more like everything is alive. So you're saying like... it could be ghosts, you're connecting to it your Ancestors, or fairies or plants or a certain deity that you have a connection to or something? Yeah, I like that. And then there's actually performing magic which overlaps because there's that, and that of course, is about transcending having the person go into a magical moment, right? And then there's magic in the everyday. And then there's also magic, because, you know, like, if you look at the definition of magic, it's basically, you know, control over natural forces like supernatural powers. I mean, the dictionary will define only two of what you said they will define one, a magician, which I am like, who can do tricks and then two, extraordinary power. But I think when you're in a transcendent state watching a magician, you can do anything because inspiration moves, right? I mean, there's overlap.


Thomas: Tell me more about the magic with the C and the magic with the CK. I've never been very clear on that.


Sodos: I know that traditionally MAGIC is magic on stage. A magician is on stage performing a magic show. And then magic with an MAGICK is more real magic. Like if you look online, there's all these people who are into, you know, spells and rituals and that kind of thing and they would spell it with a CK like magickal living, you know, "how to infuse everything with real magick" with a CK. Unfortunately, I can't go into the minutiae of why but I know that the words actually have... sort of like faerie and fairy, FAERIE and FAIRY. They actually have different etymology, those two words. They come from different... and then they just got blended. And for me ferry AE is the authentic fairy and AIRY, is like Disney. And so like I like to say, my passion, my real deep passion is where real magick, like CK, meets performance magic. I mean, I have a lot of passions, but you know, where they blend.


[MUSIC]


It's great to have you with us today! Magical moments come in all shapes and sizes. They weave through our lives in predictable and not-so-predictable ways. If you're in a life transition right now (a magical moment or a not-so-magical moment) and would like some support, you can work with me to have a custom ceremony built just for you. Find out more at shamepinata.com


Thomas: Has magic helped you deal with a life transition, with a hard life transition?


Sodos: I thought about this a lot and I'd say... what... you said helped me, has magic helped me with a life transition? And I think the biggest experience that I had of that specifically is when my mother died. I don't know if you're familiar with what I did with what my mother died. So I'm going to tell you,


Thomas: You did a show, right? And you had her join you in the show.


Sodos: When she was dead, yeah.


Thomas: Right


Sodos: So my mother was a performer when she was younger and had some mental illness. It was a challenging relationship but she was also very funny and dynamic and alive and alive... And she had a big shadow. And so she always wanted to perform with me, but it was… the relationship was challenging. And she was in nursing homes. This is so funny, funny and sad. I would do magic shows at the nursing home. And we’d practice like, "Oh, we could do routines together!" Her nursing home. And so I'd say, "When I hand you this cylinder, you do this." And so I… and we practice and I'd hand it to her... and she had dementia really bad so she couldn't remember what we were supposed to do. So when she died, when she was dying in hospice, I just knew, and I kept saying, "Mom, I'm going to make up a routine with you. I'm going to make up a routine with you, I promise." And I didn't know what it was. And a couple months after she died, I realized that I still had so many of her voice messages saved on my machine. So I edited them together and she was hilarious, like, and she would sing on my machine and she'd say things about how... how unhealthy she was. And so I edited them and then we perform... we... I put together this routine at her memorial, which we did at a theater where I before the pandemic was doing my monthly psychic show, although my mom has been dead for quite a while now. And I created this thing where we had a conversation and I put her ashes, her real ashes, in this box and I did a seance and we had this conversation. And I called on my mom's spirit. And it was funny, like, "Where are you?" And it was her actual voice saying, "Well, I think you know where I am." And I'm like, "Well, are you enjoying yourself?" And she goes, "Well, as usual, I'm eating too much." And because she was at times in her life very, very obese. And I had her say really funny things like we had a hilarious conversation. And then I said, "Show me a sign" and I put the box down on the table and it levitated all over the room. And to me that combines real magic and performance magic because it was a way to process her, my relationship with her, and grieve and not only grieve her death, but grieve the challenging relationship. And I mean, it's always layers of the onion, so I'm still doing that many years later. And it was amazing, Colleen, because many... because the next day I performed it in Vegas at this nightclub, the same routine. And every time I did it crazy things happened. Like three years later, I did it in Vegas and my sister called me the next day. And when my mom was admitted into the hospital before she died… like six months before she died we lost her wallet and everything and it was found the day after I did that routine three years later.


Thomas: Wow!


Sodos: It was hilarious, like... so it definitely tapped into some dimension of spirit.


Thomas: Wow, I was following along with you doing that work, but I've never heard you really describe all of it before. So I just feel so honored to be let into that time in your life. And to be aware of how amazingly embodied and empowered you are to… and creative you are, you're just so amazingly creative, to have to brought that together and to have shared that with the world your own processing of that really, really big loss.


Sodos: Thank you so much. That means a lot. That means a lot.


Thomas: Wow. Well, so… one thing I wanted to ask you, because I know that you are connected to magic in so many different ways and it's also your day job. So I wonder if it ever starts to be a little bit less than fun, or it starts to feel like work, or you need a break from it, or… does that ever happen?


Sodos: Yeah, so you mean... Right. So the performing magic, does that take away from my experience of magic as I...


Thomas: Because it's your job? Because you're in a half-to position with it to some extent?


Sodos: Well, I think it's actually the opposite. I think it deepens my connection to magic, because there's witchy people who are into real magic and then there's magicians and it's shocking how few magicians actually like real magic. Like they hate it. Like, like, some magicians actually dislike real magic. And I think, "Well, you're a magician. So I would hope that you would love real magic. You’re pretending to do magic. So..." For me, as someone who loves real magic, I do my magic from that way. So I do many different kinds of magic. So I can do card magic with the rest of them and then I do this branch of magic called mentalism. If you're familiar, it's a psychic magic, so it's mind reading, and predictions. And when I do that, I'm combining all kinds of magic and people don't know what's going on. Like, they're just, "What the heck?!" And you know, so when I do that form of magic, feeling people's reaction to it and seeing it helps me believe in magic. So it actually deepens my connection to magic. Does that make sense?


Thomas: Yeah that does. Mm hmm. 


Sodos: I think where it does limit my magic is, when I see a magic show, like most magicians want to know how everything's done. Like, that's all they care about. I mean, it's very male dominated, so you can imagine it's... that's a different conversation, but... They want to know how the trick is done and unless I'm going to do something I'd rather not know. So if I see a magic show where I know it's tricks, I don't want to know because that takes away the magic for me. I only want to know the magic that I'm going to do otherwise, I'm going to be enjoyed by what you're doing and to me, it's real magic. And not only that, but I do some magic effects that I literally don't know how they're done. I know that sounds weird. But there's a whole there's magic that it doesn't even make sense. That's why it's so cool, magic. [LAUGHES]


Thomas: You don't know how they happen, but they happen reliably enough that you can perform them and trust that they'll happen?


Sodos: Yeah, there's certain techniques in magic. There's different techniques… and you know, I was learning some card stuff and it's like, "How... How is that working? I... this is my card..." I practice myself.  And to me, that's magic. And I also think it's magical that people think of this stuff that like somebody makes up this stuff and then they sell it or whatever they write books. Yeah, it's very cool.


Thomas: So you just said, and I know from knowing you that a big part of your… a big part of your inspiration and your work is to inspire people to find their own magic. What advice do you have for helping people begin to open their eyes to the magic around them in everyday life?


Sodos: Yeah, that's a great question. So I'd say slowing down, paying attention, looking around them, utilizing all their senses. So again, I can just walk into a room and notice the sun coming through the window, and again... the highlight of my day. You know, you're transcended, even if it's just for a second. So I'd say one of the ways to experience more magic is to slow down, pay attention, and feel. Open to our feelings, connect to nature as best they can, you know, I know again, different bodies, but being outside and feeling the sun and the wind. And, you know, weather and the changes. Meditating, the old classic that's pretty much good for most things. Meditating is brilliant. And I even think altars, you know, just starting to create even if it's just a candle and a glass of water, you know, lighting a candle and sitting in front of the candle and make things fun. Cleaning. During the pandemic, I have gotten so into cleaning, it's actually weird and I make it a whole ritual, because you have to clean and it's… whether it's I'm listening to a podcast or to music to a mood and I think of intention and as I sweep by put the… So it's like, it's like infusing intention, you know, even if it's just when you wash your face and you say, “I open to magic and I'm going to see clearer” and paying attention to. If... if one lives with a companion animal, or a plant, you know, feeling the plant and sensing, I think opening up to subtler vibrations. It's really helpful.


[MUSIC]


Opening up to subtler vibrations, infusing intention into the things we do, and creating simple altars. These are three great ways to find our own magic. And it’s important to find what sparks for each of us, right? I may miss the little things that jump out to you and you may miss the ones that appear to me. They’re really reflections of the magic within us, of that space that is alive to awe, open to wonder, and willing to believe in magic. 


We will hear more from Erica in season 3, but for now I invite you to consider how you might find more magic in your world. You might be like Erica and find yourself called to draw meaningful symbols in your cat’s breakfast, maybe you’ll have a conversation with a certain tree you pass on a walk, or see if you can hear the spiders laughing. Whatever you do, follow your intuition, as you continue to find your own magic. 


Erica Sodos is a magician, speaker, emcee, psychic entertainer, one of only a handful of female mentalists in the world. An avid lover of nature, dedicated vegan, environmentalist, activist and tour guide at an animal sanctuary, Erica is committed to ending speciesism by creating a world that honors all beings. You can find out more about Erica and see examples of her magic at ericasodos.com. You can also find links to upcoming shows in the show notes.


Our music is by Terry Hughes. You can follow us on IG and Twitter at shamepinata. You can reach us through the contact page at our website, shamepinata.com. And you can subscribe to the podcast on Radio Public, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite player. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S2 E9 Do You Need a Ceremony? (Pt 3, The Deep Dive)

Episode Summary

Sometimes we feel a call to deepen, to learn, to grow and while there are many amazing teachers in the world, one of the greatest resources we have is our own intuition and our unique connection to Spirit. But in day to day life, it can be difficult to tap into these sources of wisdom. How can we create an intentional space to hear their voices?

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Sometimes we feel a call to deepen, to learn, to grow. And while there are many amazing teachers in the world, one of the greatest resources we have is our own intuition and our unique connection to Spirit. But in day to day life, it can be difficult to tap into these sources of wisdom. How can we create an intentional space to hear their voices?

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions.

This is the 3rd episode in a 3-part series called "Do You Need a Ceremony?" In part 1, we looked at significant personal moments, times when something important happens in life that might call for a moment of reflection, or celebration, or silence. We talked about how ceremony can be a helpful tool in honoring these event or milestones. In part 2, we looked at how ritual can help us reinvent ourselves when things get hard, when we're forced to let go of something we love, or when we just feel ready for a change.

Today we will look at how ritual can help us learn more about ourselves and deepen into our own inner wisdom. Let me say more about what I mean by this. Sometimes when I'm feeling lost or when things are especially hard, I look around and wish there was someone there to tell me what to do. Even when I am standing there all alone, it's amazing to remember that there is someone there who can do that for me - potentially several someones. For me personally, there’s Spirit, my Ancestors, and my guides… As mythic astrologer Caroline Casey says, "Co-operators are standing by...." But also - perhaps most importantly - there's me, the deeper, wiser, older part of me, the part of me that I call "intuition", "gut feeling" or "body wisdom".

For you this may be different. You may experience Spirit differently or not at all. You may not experience any cooperators standing by, but you always have your internal compass, your knowing, your truth. And if by chance you've lost sight of that recently, know that that's something I don't believe we can ever truly lose.

This inner knowing can help me when I'm needing advice, looking for wisdom or when I just want to get some perspective on what's going on in my life and heart. For me, it's almost like my day-to-day mind keeps my attention on what needs to happen next and then next and then next to stay focused and meet my goals, while my deeper self holds the expansiveness of my being, the arc of my life, the complexity of the worlds I move through, the wonder of everything happening in each moment. And connecting to my deeper self bring me into that expansive space where it's all so much bigger than what I conceptualize as "me" and once I'm connected to that space, I can much more easily receive guidance or information from the co-operators.

Now, there are a myriad of ways you might already have cultivated to connect with your intuition. You might sort out the complexities of daily life while you’re running or doing yoga. Journaling might give you space to put out all out there on the page so you can see the next steps forward. You may find calm and deep connection through a meditation or mindfulness practice. What I'd like to share with you today are some thoughts on how ritual can create a container to let you take a deep dive into your inner wisdom, like in a specific period of time. We'll be right back.

It's wonderful to have you with us today! In this 3-part series, we're exploring how ritual can help us mark significant moments, reinvent ourselves, or go deeper. What about you? Have you created a ceremony that changed you, helped you start over, or took you to a new level of connection within yourself? If so, we'd love to hear how you did it. Tell us about it through the contact page at shamepinata.com.

Here are some examples of times when you mighty feel a call to go into a deep-dive of self-connection:

  • at the new year, whenever you might celebrate that

  • during the bleeding time of your cycle (if you have one) when intuition can be heightened

  • when you need a reset

  • when you're feeling lost

  • when something particularly difficult is going on or when you're struggling with something in your heart

  • at significant astrological moments, such as your birthday, half-birthday or Saturn return and speaking of astrology, Mercury retrograde is a great time to stop, deepen and reflect

All of these are examples of times when you might sense a desire to create a kind of power-moment to connect with the deeper self.

If you're resonating with this idea, I invite you to sense into an upcoming moment that might feel like a good match for a deepening ceremony. It could look like setting aside a few hours before your birthday party to meditate and read Tarot cards to wrap up the last year of your life. It could be an intentional dinner on your own where you really taste the food and notice the memories that come along with each flavor. You might take a weekend workshop to create some structure for your solo journey. You could do an all-night vigil on the longest or shortest night of the year.

These can be very rich internal experiences where we connect super deeply with ourselves and build trust and gain knowledge. Some modalities of connection to our wisdom are: dreamwork, Tarot, reiki, Tai Chi, freeform movement and dance, freeform painting, drawing or sculpting, journaling, or collage. We can invoke the Ancestors, listen deeply to their wisdom and create art based on what we hear. We can set up a mirror and take a deep dive into our eyes for hours by candlelight.

But wait, this might all sound silly and selfish and kind of weird! There are so many wonderful things and so many challenging things in life. The challenging ones can wear us down. In order to be our best, show up as fully as possible for the people we love, ceremonies like these can fill us up so we can be more available to the people we love, more available to our world.

It’s all about asking for what we need and being open to receiving answers to our questions and prayers. It's not so much making the thing happen as deeply listening to what is needed, taking our problems to the river or the ocean and listening to what we hear back. Trusting in what we hear back.

Our music is by Terry Hughes. Please follow us on IG or Twitter at shamepinata. And subscribe to the podcast on Radio Public, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite player. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S2 E6 Do You Need A Ceremony? (Pt 2, Reinventing Ourselves)

Episode Summary

Ch-ch-ch-changes! In part-two, we step off the beaten path and into the unknown. Maybe by choice, maybe not. Either way, we have all we need to reinvent ourselves. We just need to get creative.

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Picture this. It's May, the very end of the year at a busy middle school. Everyone is ready for summer but the 8th graders are acting especially weird. They're getting in trouble for silly reasons and sometimes acting completely out of character. I've learned over time that 8th graders can act a little strange in that last month because they’re preparing for a huge change. They have no idea what life will look like next year, which of their friends will still be in their lives or what academic, social and even emotional challenges high school will bring. They’re at that place, in the words of Shel Silverstein, where the sidewalk ends.

Life gives us moments like these again and again, chances to step off the beaten path and into the unknown. What does it take to make that leap? How can we make it easier? What are some little things we can do to support ourselves and the ones we love through the process of reinventing ourselves?

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions.

This is part 2 of a 3-part series we’re calling, “Do You Need a Ceremony”. In part 1 we focused on honoring important personal moments, the kind there are no party decorations for - and really, the kind we might not even think about honoring. Moments that run the gamut from a huge loss like losing a beloved pet, to joyful moments like paying off our student loans. The idea is that if it’s an important moment to us, it’s important to celebrate it or mark it in some way. Today we’re going to talk about how ritual can help us reinvent ourselves.

Sometimes it can feel like it’s time for a change. And sometimes we grow without even realizing it. And other times we don’t even know we need to change until we get out of our routine and when we return to it, we realize it doesn’t fit us anymore. Has that happened to you? These are the kinds of changes we’ll be talking about today as well as the many intuitive ways we already demarcate change and growth in our lives.

So first, how do we know when we’re going through a change? Of course, sometimes it’s quite obvious. Like when everything is going great and suddenly it all falls apart. Big changes can happen like that, suddenly, and with little warning. These can be super unsettling, disorienting, and upsetting. When a change happens - especially if it’s a big change that takes our focus, it can be easy to lose touch with the things that ground us and keep us calm.

Sometimes we might not notice that things are ticking along and we’re silently coming to a moment of meaningful change as a person. It might feel like we don’t easily fit into a role we’ve always held or like no understands what’s really going for us. We might notice new feelings like feeling frustrated or annoyed or even more tired than usual. We might notice we’re feeling kind of trapped or unappreciated.

The reality that we’re constantly growing and changing goes somewhat against the way we typically think and plan. For example, we live our lives as if we’re all set and nothing will really change from this point forward. We anticipate life stages and probably expect that we are likely to move though them just like our parents did, but in the day to day, things can feel pretty stable. So the fact that we’re always growing and changing kind of works against the comfort of the known, the stability of the familiar. We’re probably eventually going to get tired of this exact job or the unique culture of this company. We may decide to change our major at a very inconvenient time. Maybe by the time we’ve saved enough to buy our dream home, we’ve met someone who wants to travel the world instead of settle down.

We change.

One night years ago, I cooked a wonderful fish dinner and after cleaning up, I stepped outside to take out the trash. Upon returning to the apartment I was surprised to realize the entire place smelled like fish. I hadn’t noticed it during the time I was cooking and eating but after being in the the fresh air for a few minutes it was obvious to me. This became a metaphor in my life for the value of taking a break from my regular routine in order to make sure it was still working well.

When changes happen that I don’t want, two of the most helpful practices I’ve learned to do are to be in flow and to say thank you. There’s something about trusting the flow and showing that trust by saying the words "thank you" that transforms my experience. This brings to mind one of my favorite quotes by Meister Eckhart. “If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough.”

Another way to approach change is through the meme, “When something changes in your life, just yell ‘plot twist!’ and keep going”. I try to remember that one too because… I’m really not in control. As much as I want to be, as much as I feel like I need to be, and as much as I OK I want to be. I’m not - and that’s hard.

We'll be right back.

[AD] Thanks so much for joining us today! Just a heads up that if you're in a life transition right now and would like some support, you can work with me to have a custom ceremony built just for you. Go to shamepinata.com to learn more.

Changes can actually be helpful in that they invite us to reinvent ourselves. For example, we might change our diet if we are diagnosed with an illness. That’s just a small example.

Here’s a list of times when I might choose to re-invent myself:
- after a loss
- when my life is changing in a way I can't control
- when I see a change coming
- when an old chapter is closing or a new chapter is starting
- when I just feel like I’m becoming a new person
- when I want to get unstuck
- when I really want to change an old habit or mindset
- when I notice that hard feelings are getting in my way
- or when I feel inspired to become a better or a different person

There are ways that we intuitively reinvent ourselves in life by using intentional actions. For example, cutting our hair, changing up our personal style, moving to a new place, reaching out to new people, trying something new, even walking a different way to work, anything to honor the way we're changing.

In addition to these intuitive methods for changing it up, we can go a little deeper if we want. Here are a few examples:

If I see a change coming, I can use ritual to ground on a daily basis - ground into the things that give me strength and help me be me in the flow and be able to say thank you so that I am able to navigate the change with as much resilience (and grace if I can muster it) as possible. Perhaps lighting a candle each morning. Taking 10 minutes of the day to do a breathing practice. Dancing to one song everyday and full-out expressing myself as much as I can for those 5 minutes.

When I’m starting a new chapter in life, I can weave the sacred into that experience in several practical ways, from creating a personalized playlist of songs to cheer myself on and hold the hard feelings, to bringing my friends and loved ones around to circle up with me and vision what my life could be like.

When it’s time to get unstuck, ceremony might help me to simulate the stuckness. Maybe a friend can hold my arm another friend can hold my foot and act as stand-ins for the things that are holding me in place. I might dialogue with them and talk about the limitations I feel and find in my body to be ready to make the change and break out of their grasp. Or perhaps it's a different direction. Perhaps my body might indicate a need to surrender to these forces until an a-ha moment arises and I see things in a different way. This kind of thing can also work when a bunch of bad feelings are in my way.

You’re seeing a pattern here right? Rituals are physical acts that we do that have a greater significance than just the act itself and they are effective because they tap into our subconscious mind. Sometimes physical actions can just be straightforward physical actions like drinking a cup of coffee. We want coffee. We drink coffee. End of story. But we might also take a sip of our Grandmother’s favorite coffee on Samhain to honor our continuing connection to her through the veil, remembering what it felt like to sit in her kitchen as a child smelling the coffee brewing. The cool thing is that anything we do in life we can do with intention. In ritual space, simple acts can be profound.

Let's move on to a real life example of using ritual to reinvent oneself. I will actually give you two. These are ceremonies I've spoken of before, so I will add links in the show notes so you can hear the full story on each one.

The first one is from the time when I was preparing to get married. I knew, in that way we can know ourselves so well, that despite my best efforts, I was going to have a tendency to hold the wedding in a lopsided way. I was going to want the fairy tale as the main event, not the commitment and the day to day struggle, the active noun of love. (Mr. Rogers says love is an active noun, like struggle). I was going to focus on the dress and the fairy tale and ever after... you know, the things girls get socialized into wanting. Now, I've been a feminist for many years and I know that the archetype of the bride was going to run deep and would pull out all the little girl stuff in me. So I decided to consciously counterbalance that pull by committing to myself first.

I designed a self-commitment, or self-marriage, ceremony which I held about three months before the wedding. As I said, there's a much longer story here and you can hear it on the episode called "My Self-Marriage Story". But I will tell you here that the ceremony was a profound moment of reinventing myself as I was about to get swooped up into a bunch of old stuff I didn't believe anymore. It allowed me to reinvent myself so that I was in a calm, grounded place, resourced within myself before I made that commitment with another person. And the vows I made to myself in that ceremony are still relevant to me every day.

The second example is from another moment in time when I felt called to reinvent myself. I had been at a job for too long and the day finally came for me to leave. The trouble was that it was difficult to see where I was headed next because I had so many backlogged hard feelings from my time of stuckness. You can hear all about how I dislodged and released the old stuff in an interview I did on The Queer Spirit podcast. It's the last question host Nick Venegoni asked of me on the show and it's linked in the show notes.

I invite you to think and feel through all of these examples and ideas and match them up against any places in your heart in you that might be ready for a re-boot. You are an amazing, glowing, changing being. Celebrate it!

Our music is by Terry Hughes. Be sure to subscribe in your favorite player to make sure you're notified when new episodes are released. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

Bonus - Ritual Initiation and Change (The Queer Spirit Podcast)

Episode Summary

In the words of Nick Venegoni, “Initiation is a moment when you can step into the next level of power.” Nick compares initiation to leveling up, like in gaming. You gain a new power. What if this is true? What if we can reframe the challenges in our lives as initiations that not only help us get through the hard moments but also help us to level up?

Episode Resources

 → Queer Spirit Podcast: https://queerhealingjourneys.com/podcast/

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

In the words of Nick Venegoni, “Initiation is a moment when you can step into the next level of power.” Nick compares initiation to leveling up, like in gaming. You gain a new power. What if this is true? What if we can reframe the challenges in our lives as initiations that not only help us get through the hard moments but also help us to level up?

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Today we are going to explore a recent conversation I had with Nick Venegoni. Nick has been a guest on Shame Piñata and hosts his own show called The Queer Spirit Podcast. The Queer Spirit Podcast highlights conversations with artists, healers & activists who enliven, heal & empower the LGBTQ+ communities.

In the following episode of The Queer Spirit Podcast you will hear a discussion focusing on ritual, initiation and change. Topics covered include the ritual I created to honor the 10 year anniversary of my father's passing, the first ritual I ever did, how rituals help us make sense of change and the power of initiation. We will also touch on coming out as one of the biggest queer initiations, my own coming out story and also, the story behind the name of the Shame Pinata podcast.

Stay tuned through the end of Nick's show for a preview of what's coming on Shame Piñata this summer. And now, The Queer Spirit Podcast.

Venegoni: Welcome to The Queer Spirit Podcast. I'm your host, Nick Venegoni. Here we have conversations with artists, healers, and activists who enliven the LGBTQ+ communities, and who empower our queer spirits to flourish. Before we get started with the interview, if you haven't heard, I've started a Patreon account for the podcast. Patreon is a way for you to help support the show and get special rewards in return such as a thank you shout out on the show, and an enameled button with the queer spirit logo. This year, I've also added access to videos of the podcast interviews and a free monthly live virtual sound bath. If you'd like to join in supporting the show, just go to patreon.com/queerspirit. You can also find the link in the show notes. Any Patreon funds remaining after the basic production costs will be donated to nonprofit supporting diverse queer communities. Once again that link is patreon.com/queerspirit. Thanks for your consideration.

Venegoni: My guest today is Colleen Thomas. Colleen is a ritual artist and independent audio producer her podcast Shame Piñata focuses on creating rites of passage for real life transitions. Today we talk about the importance of ritual as a container and support for big and small changes in our lives. Colleen shares how she discovered the power of ritual to help her feel supported through life's challenges. She also shares some examples of the ways people have honored their relationships from the stories heard on her podcast. Find Colleen and her show at shamepinata.com.

Venegoni: Hi, Colleen, welcome to the show.

Thomas: Hi, Nick, it's so good to be here with you.

Venegoni: Yeah, I'm excited to talk a little bit more about your podcast, having recently been a guest on it myself and share a little bit more about the vision that you're bringing out into the world. But before we do that, I wonder if you can just tell us a little bit about what inspired you to start a podcast about rites of passage?

Thomas: Sure. Well, I guess it's sort of a roundabout answer. I have a very strong interest in radio and working in radio in some capacity, which there's a story around that too. But I'll just stick with this story. I was offered an internship with a local radio station and was so excited about it. But then I also started a new day job that exact same moment and I couldn't do both because one was 40 hours a week, and one was 20 hours a week and I was going to have a three hour a day commute so there's no way it was gonna fit! And so after about a year of getting my feet settled at the new job and learning all the new things with the commute and all the changes, life change, I found an audio coach and she helped me figure out a podcast project because I just wanted to be doing something. And I really wanted it to be about performance art, because I'm very interested in performance art and developing myself as a performance artist. But she said, “You keep telling me amazing stories about ritual.” And I decided… first I was like, “No… ritual... yeah, I do that all the time. I want to do this new thing.” And she's like, “No, no, I really think about it.” And then I thought about it and then I decided, “Yes, this is a thing. This is an important piece of my life. I have a master's degree in spirituality, I've put a lot of thought and energy into it. And I love to design ritual,” so I decided to make that the focus of the show.

Venegoni: Great. So what is your history and your background with… or your just... your relationship with a ritual in general?

Thomas: Well, I was an only child, I am an only child, so when I was a kid, I did a lot of things on my own. So I think a lot of my creativity comes from that. My friends say that I'm like, the most creative person they know. I'm like, sort of... that's like, “Oh, you're so creative.” They always say that. So I think I kind of had that already. And make believe it's been a really big part of my life, you know, I can see... I can entertain myself, I'm fine on my own. And I was religious when I was a kid but I wasn't... I guess really wasn't spiritual until I had sort of an awakening after college when I realized that my moon flow was a very sacred thing for me. And the time of the menstruation became a very big spiritual practice for me. And that led me to a school in Oakland, California, Matthew Fox's University of Creation Spirituality... well, that sort of spiritual, that awakening spirituality and me led me there. And then I got to focus on the blood mysteries for my master's thesis. So I got to really delve into the concept of the Red Tent during that time. And just sort of around that time, I just started, you know, honoring the new moon and the full moon and creating ritual for this and that and I just began to realize that rites of passage are super important, like whenever anything is going on in my life that you know is a little difficult or challenging, or I want my community around me... or it's usually for me, always things that nobody would understand. So like there's no ceremony for this weird thing is happening in my life, so I'm gonna have to create it. So that's kind of what prompted creating ceremony.

Venegoni: Yeah. And for you what is important about creating some kind of ritual or ceremony for these strange or unique or significant things that are happening in your life?

Thomas: Well, they're important, and they're usually scary and new, and I don't want to be alone in them. And they're all really important moments. And I guess it's basically I don't want to be alone.

Venegoni: And even if it's something that's just happening to you, can you just share like how, by doing ritual, you don't feel alone?

Thomas: Well, I usually do it in community. So that's kind of a built-in way. I do ritual by myself but lately, it's been more in community. I guess, what I do mostly when I'm alone, is I'm often planning something that I'm doing in community. So bringing people together... I just had a big ritual for myself about a month ago on the anniversary of my father's death, the 10 year anniversary of my father's death, honoring another step I felt I had taken in my own healing from that relationship. And it was really healing for me to plan it and to sense into what was changing exactly, and it was several things. And to honor... to figure out where those things wanted to go and exactly what would honor them. And exactly, then how would I bring community into that? And like, what would that look like? And it involved some jewelry, presenting myself with jewelry [LAUGHS] This is a typical theme for me - I have a whole bunch of significant jewelry. And I picked people to present me with the pieces. And those people, I gave them the full lowdown, “This is exactly what this means, and let's work together on how you will present this to me, you know, in ritual space.” And then I had... I also invited everybody to that particular ritual to bring something. So it's very important for me to have everybody's voice in the circle. And so everybody brought some kind of reading. Everybody got involved in some way. And the beauty of that is that at first I thought, “Oh, I'll just send out… please read that.” And then I was getting some… “Oh, that doesn't resonate with me... that doesn't… that feels weird”, or, you know, or “Can I read this?” and that was kind of I didn't want that. But then it actually turned into this really much deeper and richer involvement of each person so that they really showed up with this thing that meant something to them and then they contributed. So then it was like we were weaving, constantly weaving, this circle deeper and stronger with all of us. And it ultimately helped me achieve one of my big goals with ceremony, which is even if it's for me, for everybody to get something out of it as much as that's possible. And everybody always says things like, “Oh, you did this for us. This isn't for you, you engineered this for us” you know… It's like I'm always really happy when they they feel that way about it. Yeah,

Venegoni: Yeah. Yeah. And you've used a word that I really resonate with when I think about ritual, which is weaving. You know, in pagan communities, when we talk about spellcrafting, we talk about weaving a spell. But even for those who don't resonate with the word spell, I do think even in ritual, particularly with other people, that there's this way that it feels woven together, like we all have a little a part of it, you know. I think about this idea of like the maypole at Beltane when people... everyone's holding on to a ribbon and they're all dancing together, and they're weaving this beautiful pattern around the pole. Or even if you're alone, and you are working with Spirit or other Deities, there's a way in which they are working with you and they're weaving this ritual with you together. And it could be the image I'm getting right now is, you know, weaving a blanket of protection or comfort around you if there's grief or sorrow, or some challenge happening. But the.. I really like that image and that sense of weaving. Do you have a special memory of one of your own rites of passage? I mean, you just mentioned this one about the anniversary of your father's death. But I wonder if there's something in particular maybe even like the first one that felt significant to you that really felt like, “Oh, this is for me, I'm really, you know, this works for me better than, you know, maybe this other religion that I was raised”?

Thomas: Hmm. Well, I had a period of my life when I was just first in college, I met a woman who was a bi witch. And those both were new concepts to me - like as them as being legitimate was new to me. Like I had heard of bisexual people in my life, but it was always with, “Oh, yeah, that person is a little confused...” You know, like, it was never like, “Oh, that person's bi and they're cool.” or, “They're just a person”, you know, like, it was always like, there was a caveat that it was like - bad. And even from my gay friends that's what I was hearing. And later when I came out to some of my gay friends as bi, they were kind of like, “Oh, I'm sorry.” and I was like, “Just stop it!” So... but she was bi and so that was a little challenge for me, too. Like, you know, like, “Oh wait, she's really amazing” reprogramming you know, my brain. And then she was a witch and something about her being both challenged me in those ways at the same time. And I think I was always a witch and just didn't know it. When I was six or four or something like that, my mom made me a bad witch costume. The Wizard of Oz was big in our house. So she made me the bad witch costume. And the next year, she made me the Good Witch costume. And then I just, I literally wore them every year. I rotated the Good Witch, Bad Witch, Good Witch, just like and… I liked the Good Witch costume a little bit better because it had a like a princess... the hat was turned into like a princess hat and it had like a big piece of taffeta hanging down off the point, you know, so it sort of swirled around me. And so that felt very pretty to me, and soft, and blue was very blue. But other than that I didn't have a preference of the Good Witch, Bad Witch. And so I just feel like then later meeting this woman in college and realizing what being a witch meant to her being a pagan, earth based spirituality and learning what that was, that just felt like, wow, that makes so much more sense than, you know, the way I was trained to learn all the Christian things I was raised with. Those always felt very important to me, but I've never understood them and spent a fair amount of time banging my head against the wall trying to get them in. And it just never really it never fit. It never exactly made sense to me. And so then I met her and then I sort of moved into that space. And so that freshman year, I remember the spring of my freshman year in college, I remember, that was like a real time of awakening. And I was surrounding myself with pagan learnings and pagan experiences. And I had one, I don't usually refer to them as spells. Now, like you mentioned that word, I don't really resonate with that word. But when I first came to it, that word was used a lot. And so I was sort of involved in that word. And my first spell I did was it was this, like, “Let me be healthy and green. Love myself. Love the planet…” It was very, like, very, it was very good witchy! under a tree. And I just sort of like I read something out of a book, which is totally not the way I operate. Now, like I would never read something out of a book or a spell now, because it's like, “Wait, now what does that mean? And what was the intention behind that?” and I'm not going to read out of a book unless I really love it. But I was, you know, under this tree reading this spell, and it was something about having a green cord and tying it on a tree or something. And it was just basically a prayer. It was very simple. But I remember that as being a very profound moment of me moving into this nature-based place that felt so empowering and so lush and so real and immediate.

Venegoni: So one of the things that you sort of tagline in your podcast as you want to talk to people about how rituals help us make a sense of change. And we sort of touched on that a little bit. But I'm curious, both through your own experience, and through the interviews you've had with people, like, how do rituals help us make sense of change?

Thomas: Well, early on in my show, one of my guests, Betty Ray, she said, “Rituals help us create a container to hold the powerful emotions that come with change.” And that really, like I was like, Yeah. Like all my guests have been putting words to these things I've been feeling all this time and that is exactly… to me... that resonates for me. Because... if the other thing that I've been noticing is like if I'm developing this theory that we can handle change, and change is a very constant thing, but we don't like it. And we like to just tick tick tick tick along like normal and like, “Okay, I'm good if this like, you know, all these things in my life stay the same, and it's good, I'm good.” But then like something happens, then I go into this place of, “Oh!” and upset and fear. And it's like strong emotions. Basically like boom, strong emotions! So then maybe that's a situation... problems, not all of them. But maybe that's a situation where a ritual could help. You know, I was brainstorming last night, my next episode, which I'm thinking about calling, like, Do you need a ceremony? Or is it time for ceremony? Or how do you know you need to ceremony or something like that. And I was thinking about all the changes in our lives that happened, and maybe which ones of them, you know, how do we know if we want to ceremony around this or not? Like, like, if I need to move, maybe I don't have time for a ceremony because I'm busy moving so like, sorry, you know. But if somebody is that I love is sick and I can't be with them, maybe that's a perfect time for ceremony for myself, or to gather people around me to sit with me while I hold space for them, you know, across the miles or whatever is challenging. We can feel into like, “Would something be helpful? Would it be helpful to create a container for these emotions? Or would it just be helpful to like, write them all down in a journal and like, just put them somewhere?” You know, like, it doesn't have to be, you know, a zoom call with friends or people in my living room or you know, it doesn't have to be a big thing. It could be a very small, intentional act to help deal with a situation. Yeah.

Venegoni: And I know that something You and I had discussed on your show a little bit was the concept of initiation. And I'm curious, you know, what sort of your ideas are about initiation, what initiation means, particularly in the construct of a ritual?

Thomas: Well, you were the one who said that on my show, I thought it was Thom, but it was you. And it was really a magical moment for me when you said that I was like, “Oh, my gosh, this is that's exactly…” Like I had been framing it like that, like, when I think of initiation, I tend to think of, you know, Imbolc, or, you know, joining a group and, you know, going through something... being initiated into, like, a coven or something official like that, like… Not just like, “Oh, I'm going into phase 27A of my life now” You know, and, or my relationship now, right? And so that's an initiation. So like that, that just struck me as like, wow, that's beautiful way to put it, because, especially if something is coming up that I don't want, you know, like, this thing is like, “Oh god, this horrible thing is happening in my life!” Like, you know, how, yes, I'm changing, I'm being forced to change in this moment. How can I reframe this as an initiation? Or how is it initiation, or what I want to claim and is one now, like, and what's being ignited in me what's being birthed in me and needing to deal with this change, right? And then, of course, the we can, you know, becoming 40, becoming 50, becoming 60, getting married, having a baby, all those things, you know, initiations into a new phase of life, it just seems to me like using that word initiation makes it, it just feels really different than saying, “I'm going into a hard thing or changing in some way.”

Venegoni: Well, what I'm thinking about right now, as we talked about, is if you just take the word initiate, usually to initiate something means that you are doing it of your own volition. You know, you've talked about some of these other things that just kind of happen that we don't have control over like death, or the cycles of our body… you know, those kinds of things that often we know that they're going to come but we have to just prepare and deal with it and so let's just create this container to have to work through it more easily. But to initiate something means that you are doing it because you have to. So that was just something I just thought of now is like that's a way to sort of take the power back. And that's also the way that I think about initiation. So it's a moment when you can step into the next level of power. You know, if you think about it from a sort of gaming perspective, it's a level up. You gain a new power, and what is that power? And how do you really sink into that and hold that? Or what is that new tool that you may acquire through this process of the ritual and what comes after that?

Thomas: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think so too. It's like a choice. Yeah.

Venegoni: And in our culture, you know, there are certain things especially from a religious perspective that we do initiate ourselves, you know, as you've talked... mentioned, and you talk about on your podcast is weddings and baptism and other things. But, you know, I also talked to people about like an initiation, like a graduation as an initiation.

Thomas: Definitely.

Venegoni: You know, you are completing something, you are gaining this certificate or this diploma, that's gonna give you power and allow you to, you know, level up in your career or in your work or whatever it is that you do, and you can bring that out into the world.

Thomas: Yeah, they often call it matriculation. You know, I had a situation in my school where somebody didn't have a diploma because they had matriculated; they were in a different system. They were like, “Well, you didn't graduate.” It's like... it’s the same thing! Yeah, but that word has like going on, that means going on finishing. So it's like it's a different way of... we call it graduation, but it's really matriculation, which is going on.

Venegoni: Yeah, yeah. And as I think I talked about on your show, and I'll just mention it again here for folks, as I think one of the biggest initiations that queer folks go through is coming out, you know, coming out in terms of your sexuality or your gender identity. And it's also something that, you know, a lot of queer people... we have to continue to come out to more and more people as we move on and, and that there is a way in which it's looked at as something scary, or, you know, because it can be a significant change for people if their family or their community or their loved ones are not accepting that, they could be rejected or abandoned. But there's also a claiming of power that can happen with that too, like I'm stepping more fully into my truth and who I am. And there may be some big changes that happen that I don't have control over. But what are the ways that I can take this forward with more power and feel more solid and myself?

Thomas: Definitely. Definitely. I feel like the coming out stories are very powerful to hear. And when we go to that place and queer community where people share their coming out stories, it's like... it's that deep, powerful sharing that happens within a group where everybody in the group, you know, gets it. And they've all got their own, like really deep well from it. And there's just a very personal place. And so obviously, hearing coming out stories for anybody would be powerful, hopefully. But within the community, it's like... it's all kind of like... it's just so much. It's so powerful.

Venegoni: Yeah. Now, I've noticed that on your podcast, you've had a fair number of episodes where you talk about weddings. And I understand because that's probably the most common, you know, whether or not people are spiritual or religious, they still go through that ritual of a wedding, even if it's just going to the courthouse and signing a document. There's still something ritualistic about it. But I'm curious to know, like, if you've learned anything interesting or unique by talking to so many different people about their weddings, or, you know, if weddings have taken on a new meaning for you, now that you've heard so many different stories about it?

Thomas: Well, I chose weddings as a focus for season one, because I thought, just like you said, it could be a good entry point for folks and I thought I might stick with a theme for each season going forward. And then I decided that I didn't know I could get enough stories about like coming of age for season two, or whatever. So maybe I just needed to kind of go generic, but I wanted that to be an entry point for people. And I talked about two different sorts of ideas behind rites of passage on the show. One is the ones that there are and there aren't party decorations for. That’s kind of the way I see it, like, there are party decorations for weddings, and graduations, and well... not exactly funerals, but that's accepted as like, you know, a rite of passage or community time around a significant change. And then there's the personal ones, like the one I'm talking with my father, you know, the 10 year anniversary of my father’s passing, like, there’s no party decorations for that, right? So I got to create it myself. So I sort of want to have those two branches constantly in the show, right? So… but to your question about learning about weddings, I've just been inspired by people who have done it their way, which is kind of... and I have sought out those people. “You did it your way. Come talk to me!” you know… And your handfasting with Thom resonated so much with what I did, in my own experience, with my husband. It was like pretty much... we did a very similar thing of involving the community, being married by everybody. We invited, you know, big, huge ritual, you know, in a big space, big… nobody's sitting in chairs, everybody's super involved the entire two hours, you know, like so it was a really... it was a joy to speak with the two of you, because it resonated so strongly with my experience which I still have so much good feeling about. You know, and there was one interview with Betsy Weiss, she and her partner, Brandon, they had not gotten married, they had a ceremony which was not a marriage. And that was so she could be connected with her family before her mother passed. So it was as if they were getting married - it was sort of hard to conceptualize. And her aunts like had to make centerpieces because they didn't know what to do. They were like, “We're gonna make centerpieces!” you know, we're just like… “Okay, you're not getting married, but we're gonna make centerpieces…” because it was such a hard time for the family and her mother was passing away. But it was like... they did a wedding right before her mother died but they consciously did not get married. And they had one everybody understand that, and everybody was really confused. But like, they did exactly what they wanted. In the end, everybody kind of got it, you know, and they had this lovely... different levels of the ceremony where the deeper ceremony was very intimate, it was just the family. And then they had like, another level where they had was sort of like a reception, but it was like a gathering of more people. And then another gathering of more people, like sequentially throughout the day not like another day. And it was just really beautiful, the way that they involved everybody at different levels, you know, in different ways around the ceremony that was super meaningful to them that people really didn't get, but they showed up for anyway. And they were just kind of trusting, “I think this is what you want…” you know, like… So it was just … that was the most unique one. But they've all been super inspiring in terms of everybody doing it their own way. And really, it's kind of soul searching in the process, because a lot of people in the interview share their process with me, you know, how did you get from here to there, you know, and taking it apart and really finding what sparked for them, you know, what does this need to be for us? How do we make it happen?

Venegoni: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I like about that, and what you've sort of mentioned before, is that with ritual, it can usually be a lot more, a lot richer and more special if you are making it your own. You know, you talked about the first ritual that you did that you just kind of read out of the book, and you're like, “I don't really know, but I don't know how to do this. I'm just going to read something out of a book”, but now you only create it yourself. And that's one of the things that I talked to a lot of queer folks About especially queer couples or people who are in any kind of relationship, and they're like, “Well, I don't know if I want to get married…” or even if they do get married, like how they structure their relationship itself. It's like, you get to make it what you want. And I think that that something's unique that straight people can do too and they just don't think about it or know it. They just feel like, “Oh, I have to follow this formula,” you know? But you can make the ritual what you want it to be. It doesn't have to look like it looks in the wedding magazines or on TV, or that you can make your relationship look how you want it to look. And so, you know, that's just one of the things I think is really important to get across to all people, you know, just to keep sharing that. So I really like that, you know, that they created this unique thing for themselves. And like, this is not a wedding. I mean, it sounds kind of like a loosely, maybe a commitment ceremony.

Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I don't think they would have used that word for some reason, but I think you could, it was like an acknowledgement of their relationship. Yeah.

Venegoni: It's an announcement of like, this is who we are,

Thomas: What you just said, was making me think that telling people you can do... I do that a lot, you can do anything. You know, out of the box, it’s up to you. And yet people like, “Okay, if I can do anything, then what does that mean?” Like I mean that's like, “Jump off a cliff!” You know? There's like, you know… anything's possible and so it can be helpful to have, I guess that's kind of another thing I'm hoping maybe my show would fill or things like my show, it's like, here's a bunch of examples of things people have done. And like when I work with people to help them create a ceremony, I'll sort of feel into… “Okay, exactly, what are you looking for here?” and then like, then I'll just start throwing out… “Listen, I'm just going to dump a bunch of ideas out and you're going to maybe like a couple, you're maybe not going to hate a couple, whatever, I'm just dumping them on the table, and then you can just sort of flip through them. And if anything resonates, you know…” Then, because we need like some building blocks, when we go from a total structure to total nothingness, that doesn't work unless you really like... you've got a thread to build on, or you've already kind of picturing something, you’ve got a felt sense of what you want, and brainstorm. And all that… it kinda doesn't come out of nowhere. Like it has to be built. So... or has that you have to let it build, right? So it's like, we all need examples, like we all need that. Like, as a woman, I would say, we need that strong woman that we're like, that's a woman who's married, and she's still completely in herself. That... I like that and I want to build on that idea. Like, I did that in my life, you know? And so, like, we need examples, and we need ideas to kick around.

Venegoni: Yeah, yeah, and that's, you know, one of the things I think is really great about your show, that it helps people hear, oh, this is something different and that's possible. And maybe I want to do something kind of like that, but maybe not exactly the same and I'll take a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I mean, to me, that's also a ritual is a little bit of this, and a little bit of that. Throw it all together, and you see what happens.

Thomas: Exactly and then you mix it all the people and yeah…

Venegoni: And then the day of, you know, the magic comes together, and you're like, Oh, it's created something completely different. The alchemy of the ritual.

Thomas: Exactly, yeah. You never know what's gonna happen.

Venegoni: So Colleen, before we wrap up, can you share with us a personal practice or experience that has supported your career spiritual flourish?

Thomas: You know, really, I would say, my mom. She... the short version of my coming out story is that my dad laughed, and my mom cried. And it was, you know, a hard moment. But then over the years, she became an advocate. It was like, extremely slow, from my perspective. You know, I would be at pride and I would see a PFLAG contingent and I would cry. I would always cry when I saw PFLAG because I just thought, “Oh my god, I'm so lost. My parents will never ever, ever, ever, ever be there.” And I just was just such a devastating to me that I mean, they hadn't been mean, they hadn't been cruel, but they were just never going to go there is what it felt like. And it mailed my mom one of the PFLAG books and I told her, “Listen, you got to find people to process with because I can't process this with you because I'm the problem in this, you know, equation for you.” And I sent it to her work because I didn't want like my dad to see it at the house. And she said she kept it in a drawer for a couple of years, I think. And then she read it. And then she found a PFLAG group in our town, which... Our town is very small so the PFLAG group was also like the gay group. So it was like both supporters and queer people. And there she met a woman who ran the Unitarian Church, and she was the pastor of the... minister of the Unitarian Church. She was a lesbian, and she thought she was amazing. And so then she joined the Unitarian Church... anyway, all this snowball effect, right? And that she was around a lot of queer people and, and then it... you know, years later, she sent me this picture of herself standing in front of the television. So my dad had taken it because my dad just watched TV 24/7 after he retired and, well that's not true but he was often watching TV. And so she stood in front of the TV. And she said, “Take a picture of me!” And she was wearing a like a sandwich board, like an advertising sandwich board that said, “I love my bisexual daughter”. And she was headed off to pride in some city nearby. And she said… she told me that she said to him, “There are five phases in, I don't know, acceptance or something”, you know. “The first is denial, that's where you are. The last one is advocacy, that's where I am!” And then she walked out of the room with her her sandwich board. You know, now she's still a big advocate when she can get out, she’ll go to pride stuff. And so she's jus... and she says to me, you know, it's really sad that my dad never really changed at all. And she said, “You know, it's really sad that your dad never really moved,” but she was just so… And, you know, and just knowing that when I was back at this Pride Parade, seeing the PFLAG, and it was just devastating to me, like, never ever imagining that she would end that there'd be any movement with them. It was just, she was really… She became a lot more comfortable with the witch thing too, eventually. So that was really scary, too. Of course, you know, we get it, we get a lot of messages about about witches that are bad. So she's continuing on an ongoing basis, being a very supportive person in my life.

Venegoni: So one last question. Your show is called shame pan, yada. Can you help us understand what that's about?

Thomas: Yeah, sure. So when I was coming up with names for the show, I was trying to think of like descriptive names, like, you know, reinventing ritual, things like that. And I was brainstorming with my husband, and he said, “Well, you could call it like blue dog. And it won't matter what you call it, as long as you then you know, put out your message and people associate your message with the words blue dog.” So he said, “So, you know, maybe think about that.” So I was thinking about that, and brainstorming with a friend at work. And I said, “Well, I don't know, like this blue dog idea. I don't know if I want to do that.” And she said, ”Well, okay, if you looked around, like what you do when you do ritual, and what do you see? You know, we don't see a blue dog, what do you see?” And I said, “Oh, I see a shame piñata because I had just done a ritual recently, which is how I had that job where I was with this new coworker on lunch talking about this, where I had been at my old job (and I'm going to do an episode on this, but I haven't yet) I had... I was at a job for 14 years and I stayed like 10 years longer than I probably should have. And each of those years, I ended up sort of dying inside and sort of a way, right? This happens. And when I didn't make the change I needed to make. And it got to a really critical moment and I needed to leave. And I had so many, so many, so many hard feelings. There were like 10 years of hard feelings about myself being at this job, which was crazy. And I decided that shame exposure was a tool I wanted to use, which is something I had learned about in therapy, where we talk about something we feel deeply shameful about in a safe place, with people who will be kind and not, you know, laugh and stuff. And so I created a ritual around... it was shame I was feeling about staying in this job. And I did a ritual around it and with some friends on on zoom. This was before the pandemic, but they were remote friends, I wanted to have them involved, just my like four closest friends in the world and... because I feel like, “I'm not gonna tell too many people about all this shame!” And so part of the ritual involves piñata that I bought on Amazon, that I put sort of the negative self talk... I just kind of let it all come out of my head and I pasted it all over this piñata and it was just all these awful words on this piñata. And I decided it was my shame piñata and part of the ritual involved finding it in myself to be ready to shift to like, “Let's make this change now!” And being not just an idea. It started with the idea, “Oh, I should go break the shame piñata.” And then it was like standing in front of the shame piñatawith a stick going, “I'm just… I want to die. I don't have any desire to actually do this.” And it was like, “Just let the ground open up and swallow me now. Whatever it is watching me like I'm still in it.” But then waiting, just waiting, just waiting and starting to hear this little voice say, “No.” It was very quiet. And then it got louder. And I just let it organically grow. And then pretty soon it was like “No!” and it moved into my arms. And then it was like smashing the piñata and then that magic happened, right? And then it like changed and shifted and a few other things in the ceremony facilitated that as well. But it was the like the moments, the ceremony was like the breaking of the shame piñata and it really worked. It worked. It got me like boom! out of that job boom! into another one really quickly. Everything just like lined up. It was one of those work rituals that like ended up working really well with the intention. So when I had that conversation with her, she said, “What do you see” and I said I see a shame piñata…” and nobody's gonna have that podcast name.

Venegoni: That's true. It's a very unique and memorable name. Yeah. Was there anything inside the shame piñata?

Thomas: Yeah, I had filled it with my favorite candy. And just as a side note on that was that I had, in my spirit of wanting everybody to get something out of their ritual, I had bought a separate set of little tabletop piñatas, these little tiny ones and I had asked my four friends who were participating in the ritual… I didn't want to tell them I was sending them a piñata, but I said, “What small thing do you like? What would be a nice small thing for you?” And one person wanted like bubbles that you blow out of a little tiny, you know, like in a wedding bubbles? One person wanted puzzle pieces. One person had told me some candy. So I stuffed these tiny little piñatas with whatever they wanted and I sent them off to them. And then I said, “Listen, you're getting this piñata, here’s this piñata. Everybody was to write something on their piñata that they want to let go of. And so then after I did my piñata, everybody did their own piñata.

Venegoni: Nice.

Thomas: We got to witness everybody you know, release a little something... because there's always something to release!

Venegoni: So where can listeners find the Shame Piñata Podcast?

Thomas: Anyplace you get your podcasts, it should be there. Very, very wide distribution, and definitely iTunes, Spotify, and then you can go to shamepinata.com

Venegoni: And they can also find you on Instagram, right?

Thomas: Yes, thank you Instagram and Facebook, mostly Instagram. And Twitter.

Venegoni: Yeah. Well, we'll have those links in the show notes. Well, Colleen, thank you for being here and chatting about ritual and initiation and change and release and power with me. It's been a pleasure.

Thomas: It has been Thank you so much, Nick.

Venegoni: To find the resources we discussed today, find the show notes at the queer spirit.com and if you enjoyed the show, remember to subscribe rate and review on iTunes. This will help us reach and support more queer people all over. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

You’re listening to a special edition of the Shame Piñata podcast featuring a recent episode of The Queer Spirit Podcast. I'm very happy to have the opportunity to share this conversation with you. If you are not already subscribed to The Queer Spirit Podcast, you can find it on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Podcasts. You can also find the show on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. See the show notes for links.

And now, as promised, here’s a quick preview of what’s coming up on Shame Piñata in the next few months. Upcoming episodes will focus on reinventing ourselves, going deeper, everyday magic, releasing cords with a parent, and disability as initiation.

Our music is by Terry Hughes. If you like the show, please visit https://ratethispodcast.com/shamepinata. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S2 E4 Do You Need A Ceremony? (Pt 1, Significant Moments)

Credit Nathan Bingle

Episode Summary

As we go through life, we inevitably come upon moments that are difficult. Some might be incredibly personal ones that it feels like few other people could understand. We have some options in those moments. We can ask for help, of course. And we might also create a ritual that is uniquely perfect to address our own needs.

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

You know that feeling when an inconvenient emotion is gnawing at you, bothering you, and you just really wish it would go away? It might feel like no one would understand what you're going through anyway, so why even try to explain it? Maybe, just maybe, that thing is you trying to get your attention with an important message.

As we go through life, we inevitably come upon moments that are difficult. Some might be incredibly personal ones that it feels like few other people could understand. We have some options in those moments. We can ask for help, of course. And we might also create a ritual that is uniquely perfect to address our own needs.

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. A lot of our interviews are with people who have created ceremonies to honor life transitions that are socially acknowledged. The birth of a baby, a wedding, and death are known as the "big three" by celebrants, but there are plenty of other transitions we celebrate publicly, including getting a new job, graduating from school or finishing a training program, moving into a new home, a relationship anniversary, a friend anniversary, getting a promotion at work, committing to a partnership in community. Most of us have experienced ceremonies like these, as well as the wide variety of what constitutes "ceremony" for these events, which could range from receiving a card from a friend, to flying to Hawaii for a wedding. The function of these moments is usually to recognize publicly that this person is now different. Their label has changed, one of the many badges they wear in the world has been swapped out or added to. They're a mother now, they're a manager now, they live in the city now, or the country now, "I now pronounce you” The list goes on.

These ceremonies alert the community to their new status and also invite the person to step more deeply into the new role, knowing that on some level, other people care about this change in their life and will hold them accountable to the expectations that come with it. Some couples even ask everyone present at their wedding to help them honor their wedding vows as they move forward in life as a couple, and ask that they speak up if they see the couple failing in that regard.

In addition to helping us honor our changing selves publicly, ritual is also a wonderful way to walk ourselves through personal transitions, the kind that we might not feel comfortable sharing with the world, the kind of personal milestones that society wouldn’t see or wouldn't recognize.

Today we're kicking off a small mini series called, "Do You Need a Ceremony?" in which we'll focus on a variety of life experiences where ceremony might be helpful and see if it's something we might like to explore. In part 1, we'll touch on the important personal moments we might see coming as well as those that might surprise us.

So what are some personal transitions we might see headed our way? Here are some random examples. We might be anticipating our last child leaving the house, the anniversary of a traumatic event might be on the horizon, or the passing of a parent from whom we've been estranged. These are each somewhat nuanced and potentially complicated moments, which we might or might not feel called to work with. But if we do feel called to support ourselves through them in some way, we can turn our mind and heart toward how that could best happen.

While the socially-recognized moments often have a framework we can build a ceremony on, the personal ones may not. So here we are invited to dig deep into what is changing for us. We might begin by asking ourselves some questions like: What is shifting? What needs to be marked? How does this change make me a slightly different person? What do I want to have witnessed in this transition? How might community be part of a ceremony?

Someone once asked me if I do a ritual every month to honor a significant personal moment. My answer was no, I don't do ritual for moments of personal growth unless I'm having a moment of personal growth! My point is, you will know when you need a ritual. To help you identify those moments and consider what you might do with them, here's a simple ritual sketch.

The first thing is to begin to cultivate an even deeper self-awareness than I might already have so that it's easy to identify anything that's trying get my attention. Is anything gnawing at me? Or scaring me? Or worrying me? Is something coming up that I don't feel super comfortable with? Does my heart need some extra care around a loss? Is there something I'm really hoping someone else will do for me? What do I need?

So let's say I create this kind of open dialog with myself over time and one day I realize there's something there. There's something that is asking for my attention. I might spend some time kind of getting to know it. What does it feel like to be in touch with this need, this thing? If I journal about it, or let my mind float to it while I'm taking a walk, what do I learn? Do I have any judgments about it? "Oh, that shouldn't matter," or "I'm being selfish," or my personal favorite, "I should be over that by now." The judgments are important, so I want to hear them out. I know they come from a good place, a part of me that's trying to avoid conflict. So I hear them out and then thank them and set them aside.

Bringing a curiosity to the process will help the need or desire to show me what's happening with it. If it's a fear, it might feel tight and want comfort. If it's anger or longing, it might already be moving and just need some channeling. I might sense into where it wants to go and imagine the most supportive setting possible. Does it want to hide under a pile of blankets? Does it want to storm and rage and break things? Does it just want to say how it's feeling about a hard situation? I'll spend some time feeling into it.

As I do this, I might begin to imagine what actions would meet its needs and what it might be like to be witnessed doing those actions in a supportive way? If it's a fear that wants to hide, what would it be like to invite a friend to hide under a blanket with me and tell them about this terrifying thing? If it's rage, what's the safest way I could break a bunch of stuff and maybe even yell and scream about what I'm mad at? You see where I'm going here... the ritual creates the container and the action helps the emotion move. And the witness... the witness is magic. There's something about being seen in our deepest moments that transforms us beyond what we can do alone. I really can’t explain it.

Once I have a sense of what would feel really good, really supportive to this part, it's time start bringing everything together by deciding/intuiting the details of who, what, when, where and how. I'll remind myself to be bold and brave, really go for it and ask for what I want. I'll be getting vulnerable so it's super important to remember to take care of myself in terms of who I invite and how I share anything about the event. Mostly, I'll do everything in my creative power to honor this thing, feeling, need, and take it seriously. I know that I'm actually doing healing beyond my own when I honor an important moment for myself.

[MUSIC]

It's so great to have you with us today! If you value what you hear on the show, you can become part of the Shame Piñata community by helping us build our Podchaser page. Podchaser is donating 25 cents to Meals on Wheels for every review in April. Find the link in the show notes & don't forget to subscribe to the show in your favorite pod player if you haven't already.

Let's go through this with a concrete example. Turning 35 was a significant moment for me, because it meant outliving two strong women I admired and wanted to be like. Both my great-grandmother and a close friend of the family who helped raise me never reached that age. Each of them died at 34 and a half in very heartbreaking ways. At some point, probably between turning 34 and turning 34 1/2, I realized it was coming, the moment of having a birthday they never had.

That feeling. I don't even know what it was. Some combination of dread, loss, heartbreak and just plain fear. That was what I was working with. It was real and it was in my face and it was alerting me that I had some work to do, and that I had some feelings to process. So that was step 1, finding "the thing", the "pain point" as the saying goes in business. The thing that is coming up to be addressed.

The next step was to sense into how those feelings wanted to move and design a ceremony to facilitate that. It took me some time to build that ceremony, as simple as it ended up being. It was really kind of a long, slow process of sitting with the feelings as they came up, journaling, talking with friends, doing some small rituals, visioning and healing. I focused on coming to terms ever so slightly more with what happened to each of them. And I spent time reminding myself that I was actually a different person than them and it was okay for me to have my own story. I imagined what it might be like to chart my own course beyond their example.

Ultimately, I decided to have a large gathering of friends come over on my birthday and to simply tell them the whole story, let them witness everything. When the day came, we all jammed into my little yellow cottage for a big celebration and we really enjoyed being together. Eventually everyone settled down for me to tell the story. It was heartbreaking to go into it and it felt kind of awful to share such grief with my friends. But they stayed, and they listened, and they honored how much these women meant to me, and how scary it was for me to go on on my own. And then, quite spontaneously, they gifted me with an angel tunnel, which was formed diagonally in the little cottage and through which I walked with closed eyes between two lines of friends who whispered to me how much they loved me as I passed, the things they admired about me, and the ways I had touched their lives. The angel tunnel wasn't part of the plan for the event, it evolved on its own and it was the perfect conclusion to the ceremony because it was a birthing, a bridge into the next part of my life, the part where I would begin to map my own way forward. And it also bridged me quite lovingly into being 35, and set me on that path knowing that a whole bunch of people who loved me had my back as I moved tenderly forward.

The steps again are to identify the "pain point", sense into what it needs, and design the ceremony to support that. I invite you to give it a try the next time something is gnawing at you.

You are invited to join us for parts two and three in this short series called "Do You Need a Ceremony?" They'll be headed your way later this spring and early summer. Our music is by Terry Hughes. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S2 E1 Welcome to Womanhood (Susan Burgess-Lent/Nikole Lent)

Credit Annie Spratt

Being a woman in this world brings challenges. Susan wanted to prepare her daughter Nikole for those challenges in the best way possible. So she invited several of her closest friends to a non-religious ceremony and asked them to present Nikole with some of the things that had supported them in their own lives.

Music by Terry Hughes

Notes:
Susan Burgess-Lent
Susan's Book: Trouble Ahead: Dangerous Missions with Desperate People
Join the Shame Piñata Mailing List


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Burgess-Lent: I think that's the key is you have to decide, "Okay, this is a milestone." And we can do it fast and furiously. We can plan it out. But either way, the marking of the experience is what counts and the community that forms around that discovery, that realization, is really valuable, especially for women.

In her book "Circle of Stones", author Judith Duerk asks, "How might your life have been different if there had been a place for you to go to be with your mother, with your sisters and aunts, with your grandmothers, and the great- and great-great-grandmothers, a place of women to go, to be, to return to, as a woman. How might your life have been different?"

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome, welcome to the second season of Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions.

I am so glad you've come back to join us for season 2, and if you're new to the show, welcome! I'm especially happy to have you here today because this season we will begin to branch out and talk about rites of passage people have created for events beyond weddings. Weddings are amazing, don't get me wrong, but there are many more life transitions that we can honor with ceremony.


We're going to start off today with the life transition that probably comes most readily to mind when I say the words rites of passage. Today we will meet Susan Burgess-Lent and her daughter Nikole Lent. Susan and NiKole will tell us about their welcome to womanhood ceremony, the one that Susan created when Nikole turned 16. The setting for the ceremony was their home to which Susan invited her closest women friends to bring a symbolic gift to honor her daughter. The ceremony was 17 years ago, but you can hear how it is still an important part of their lives today.

Thomas: Susan, I wanted to start with you and ask you what inspired you to create the Welcome to Womanhood ceremony for Nikole.

Burgess-Lent: It was a process. I think I was discovering what it meant to be a woman more profoundly at the time than I had before. And when we had Nikole, I decided that my purpose was to raise a competent and compassionate human being. And I realized that at the same time, she'd also be kind of a captive of her gender. There were bad things that would happen because that's what happens to women. And much to my grief, I couldn't prevent them. And so, you know, this was an initiation into another level of the sisterhood. You know, my generation dealt with a lot more... we were more thoroughly indoctrinated into deference. I didn't want that passed on to my daughter. So, you know, and I think also her struggle during her early teen years exhausted both of us. And I wanted to celebrate the end of that, as well as this new phase that she'd come into that seemed somehow more grounded.

Thomas: Wow. And what background did you have with ritual at that time, Susan?

Burgess-Lent: Not a lot beyond, you know, the usual holiday things and birthday celebrations that... the normal ones that we have. But I also felt that some kind of maybe subconscious need to translate the more religiously oriented rituals that I had grown up with into something that was secular and to the point of providing Nikole with some real tools.

Thomas: And can you put into words the kind of tools you wanted to provide her with?

Burgess-Lent: I think that it was that first of all, that there were a whole lot of women out there who come before her, who knew the path had suffered many of them, some of the things that would happen to her and got through it and figured out what to do next. Plus their gifts were... were sort of iconic, you know things to carry, things to wear, things to listen to, that had provided some support for them in their lives. And I I feel like the ceremony had as much impact on them, as it might have had on Nikole.

I asked Susan and Nikole to take a step back for a moment and describe what happened in the ceremony.

Burgess-Lent: Nikole, do you want to do that, or should I?

Lent: You can go ahead.

Burgess-Lent: Well, okay. I had invited my women friends. I had a circle of about 10 women or so. And I told them that I wanted them to share with Nikole, the wisdom that they had acquired over the years being a woman. And that if they wanted to bring some gift, it would be in the form of something that was symbolic. And they could read a poem, or they could play some music, or they could dance or they could have an object, it didn't matter. I left it up to them.

Thomas: And what were some of the gifts that showed up?

Lent: I can speak to that, because I still have many of them. [LAUGHS] One was this gorgeous woven, very intricately woven, basket that our friend had made by hand. And I've used it for so many things over the years and it's held strong for... yeah, pretty much like 15-17 years at this at this point.

Susan: Yeah.

Lent: And it's like a... it's just a gorgeous bag that I've used for produce when I'm at the farmers market and carrying important... I've like kept precious items in it. And it was... it's just sturdy and very... Like it... it looks like she had spent hours on it. But I think she was, you know, adept in these weaving skills. So maybe it was... it was very thoughtful. And another friend gave me Joni Mitchell's album "Blue" which I love and I've listened to like in times of heartbreak and in times of you know, just the... she's... She wrote a card that said something like, "These songs are tattoos on my soul and have been with me for like, you know, profound moments in my life. And I hope that they can be there for you the way that they worked for me." And I listened... that album was like... it was like a friend to lean on. And then another friend made this beautiful... she's a mosaic tile and glass artist and she made this... a mirror that was like specifically crafted and tailored towards like a young, kind of like angsty teenager artsy vibe. [LAUGHS]. But that I loved and that I had in my room. And I forget which... Another friend had made... she did a painting of like, it was an image of a woman that was kind of in transition that I had in my room for a long time. And there was also the crown... I wore a crown, like, it was like kind of a bramble and with flowers, you know, while I was in the middle of this ceremony, and that... It just felt like an honor to be celebrated and cherished, and that was a symbol of that. Those are some of the gifts that I can think of there... I am sure there's more but, you know, it's been some time. But a lot of good stuff. A lot of precious, thoughtful, deliberate offerings.

Thomas: Wow, that sounds amazing. It sounds like the people who showed up really had prepared and were really fully present with you.

Lent: Yeah, everyone seemed to take it very seriously. And it... you know, it was light and we had we had... we enjoyed ourselves and we had, you know, some... a nice breakfast and... But yeah, everyone... like it was like the experience of transition into womanhood was something that everyone present took very seriously.

Thomas: Was it something that you talked with your friends about afterward?

Lent: I did. And I was the only person that I knew that had had something like that aside from, you know, friends that had ceremonies related to religion or cultural background, be it a bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah, quinceañera or things of that nature. But as far as like a non-religious based rite of passage ceremony, I was the only person that I knew that had experienced such a thing. So my friends are really curious and excited and intrigued by that.

We'll be right back. If you value what you hear on the show, you can become part of the Shame Piñata community by getting on the mailing list for all the upcoming events and news and don't forget to subscribe to the show in your favorite pod player if you haven't already.


[Music]

Thomas: We spoke a little bit about this before, but I'm curious if you can say more about how... well the broad question is how did the ritual change you, but specifically, I'm curious how, how it changed your relationship with ritual, if at all?

Lent: I think just the importance and significance of getting women friends together for me personally is really profound. And at one point, I was in a fashion collective and we... One day, I was just like, you know, "It'd be really... I'd love to just go somewhere where I could scream and not be heard. That would be nice. Do you guys want to go to the top of a mountain and just scream if you need to and..." We had other like sage burnings and four directions... just release ceremonies or spreading ashes of friends that had passed. These things became a regular activity in my life. And I think that... having... ritual being a thing that was important to me in my teenage years, like, carried on into my adult years and still is important to me.

Thomas: Same question to you, Susan. How did your relationship with ritual change, if at all, after the ceremony?

Burgess-Lent: Well, I took it very seriously that this sort of thing ought to be incorporated in many more ways in our lives. I spent a lot of time in Africa and I know that the sense about rituals of all kinds was a really important part of lives. And it was both a pause and a reset that said, okay, we have something to celebrate, to grieve, to whatever it was... There was a whole way of doing it that honored the community, not just women but men and women together. And I felt that rituals that women can have in particular around major events. Certainly a birth... welcoming... you know, the transition to womanhood, motherhood, menopause, all of those things. We have some ceremonies, and I'm not sure that I qualify a baby shower as a ceremony, but it sort of is. And these are major points of change in a woman's life and gathering more women together just makes it better.

Thomas: [LAUGHS] Yeah. I'm curious, Susan, from your perspective, did the ceremony 17 years ago changed Nikole in any way?

Burgess-Lent: Oh, I'm sure it had an impact. I think the thing that I noticed right away is that she seemed to begin to take herself more seriously as a woman. And I felt that, you know, she's become, partly because of the support around the issue of being a good human being, she's become a really extraordinary individual who is in intelligent, beautiful and fierce - in particular about what she thinks is fair and right. And all those things are honored when you say, "these are the values that matter in the world... in our world, in our women's lives." And taking yourself seriously on that is real big deal.

Thomas: Is that something you were aware of, Nikole?

Lent: I think it, it felt nice to be taken seriously, at that ritual. Like it felt like I was being taken seriously so it seems natural that I would shift into feeling in my power, having women acknowledge what a powerful, you know, moment of transition, this is for you... You don't get that... I wasn't getting that in school. [LAUGHS] I was getting a very different way, which is not always welcome. Having that acknowledged by, you know, elder women who I respected along with... accompanied by wisdom that was helpful... definitely was encouraging to step into my power, I would say.

Thomas: That's wonderful. And that's a such an intense time, such a potent time to be given... shown that mirror and welcome to stepping into our own power. So what advice would you both have for somebody who is considering maybe doing this for their child, a coming of age sort of ceremony?

Burgess-Lent: Well, I would say that you have to start wherever it is you are. You know, you... you don't have to be elaborate. You just have to be honest and creative. Do what works for you. And really, there's wonderful research all over the place about, you know, customs for women. Some of them aren't so good but the ones that are have, you know, objects and scents and foods, and you can integrate a whole lot of things in this. I think we did have cake, [LAUGHS] and some others. But I can't recall now. It's all it's a total sensory, if you want it to be.

Thomas: How about you, Nikole, any thoughts on advice for someone considering creating one?

Lent: Yeah, I would say, I was thinking along the same lines of just making sure you meet your child where they're at. Like, you know, tailoring it specifically to who they are like it... you have to get to know get to know what your, what your child is into, and what things might appeal to them and, and that will kind of guide you in how to arrange something like this so that it's not, like a scary, terrifying... it's an inviting thing to be a part of. Like, I was I felt comfortable and like it was like something to look forward to and something I was excited to participate in. And I think it was important, like, you know, we talked about maybe, wouldn't it be nice if we had some of my friends my age there. But I think for me, the powerful element in it was that I was being welcomed to womanhood by elders. And that was a unique experience for me that stands out is just having women that have lived it that can share about it and and have fun with it. Like it should be a fun thing. [LAUGHS]

Burgess-Lent: Yeah, most of all should be fun. Yeah, I do remember that little crown it was it was grapevines intertwined with flowers, as I recall, and you looked so cute in it.

Lent: But on a final note... that it's... I just want to emphasize how important I feel that rituals and ceremonies marking rites of passage are in this day and age. I feel like it's becoming even more important with just like how time moves more quickly and rapidly with technology especially having just those moments where you celebrate and honor like, wow, this is a major pivotal life thing. And it's gonna go by really quick. And let's take a moment to just honor this together. I think that's really important.

Thomas: I do too. I think you said it very well. Thank you for saying that. [LAUGHS]

Lent: Yeah.

Burgess-Lent: Thanks for inviting us to re... re visit the time and the thoughts that went with it.

If there is a young person in your life who is approaching a coming of age milestone, there are so many resources that can support you in creating a religious or non-religious ceremony to mark that transition. I hope that Susan and Nikole's story has widened your ideas about what that could look like. And if listening to this story brought up any sadness about missing an opportunity to celebrate coming of age for yourself or someone else, know that ritual transcends space and time and it's 100% possible to create retroactive rituals. We'll talk more about those this season too.

Susan Burgess-Lent is a veteran international aid worker, warrior for women’s rights, author, mentor, and public speaker. She is Founder and Executive Director of Women’s Center’s International, an Oakland-based non-profit that creates safe resource centers for women affected by conflict and poverty.


Nikole Lent is studying to become a trauma-informed substance abuse counselor. Pre-pandemic, Nikole worked as a Chef for musicians and events. Nikole is passionate about dance, comedy and performance art.

Our music is by Terry Hughes. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast player to make sure you're notified when new episodes are released. Learn more at
shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S1 E14 The Programming Language of the Soul (Betty Ray)

Episode Summary

The transitions in our lives can bring up difficult feelings. It’s easy to see the lay of the land when we’re walking a straight path, but when the sidewalk ends, all kinds of confusion can come up. We may lose track of where we’re going and even start to question our values. How can ceremony help us through the transformations in our lives? Join me for a conversation with Betty Ray.

Episode Resources

→ We Must Initiate the Young People: https://youtu.be/9y0FC6HW3I0

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Ray: And then there’s the whole midlife crisis and a porche and a girlfriend and whatever and all that, but we don’t really talk about what’s going on psychologically or spiritually.

The transitions in our lives can bring up difficult feelings. It’s easy to see the lay of the land when we’re walking a straight path, but when the sidewalk ends, all kinds of confusion can come up. We may lose track of where we’re going and even start to question our values. How can ceremony help us through the transformations in our lives? Join me for a conversation with Betty Ray. This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas.

Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. Today we’re going to slow it down and really look at rites of passage. Where did that term come from? What’s the anatomy of a rite of passage? And what can these ceremonies be used for?

Our returning guest Betty Ray helps parents design customized ceremonies to help their youth go through a coming of age process, something that is deeply needed in American culture today. But she understands that all big transitions are worthy of the same process, whether it’s coming of age, approaching midlife, or even experiencing a significant loss. Betty and I had a conversation recently about using the rites of passage structure to design a healing ceremony. This could be any kind of healing ceremony, but I asked her how the rites of passage structure could be useful to design a ceremony for someone who had lost a child.


Ray: I think the language rites of passage to me is more structural because rites of passage articulates a structure. There’s a three-part structure to rites of passage which is immutable and across all these different cultures. And that is really a benefit because that gives us a way in which we can design meaningful personalized rites of passage or healing rituals or however you want to describe it, there’s lots of ways. But I think the language around rites of passage for me has been to articulate this tripartate model which is so powerful. The first one, the first phase of totes of passage is called separation and this is from the work up in Arnold van Gennep and this was from 1909. So this guy a long time ago studied all these different cultures and found across cultures and across time and space that people were using the same three phases. And in fact, Joseph Campbell was really inspired by Van Gennep’s work and used his rites of passage work for the hero’s journey work which is amazing. Like I didn’t know that. Did you know that? My God, I was so excited about that, I was like “Oh, you’re kidding me!” That's so brilliant because it makes sense that rites of passage would make a good story. So the three steps are separation, where the initiate leaves the comforts of home. And whether that’s a young person going off to figure out who they are and discover their identity or a middle-age person who has to leave the sort of the structure that their life has become. So then the second phase is called liminality or I’ve also heard it referred to as metamorphosis and that’s the phase where once they’ve left there kind of betwixt and between as Victor Turner said. It’s this time when you don’t know what’s going to happen to you and that’s when this beautiful phase of ego death comes in. You don’t know. You die. Who you are, who you were, is no longer who you are or who you want to be. And then there’s design elements I can make liminality more or less... that’s a design challenge for those of us who want to do these. And then the reincorporation phase where the young person for the young middle/elder whoever comes back to wherever they were, to the original, you know, container and then takes what they’ve learned and bring it back to... so that they may be in their community once again. So there’s kind of a, you go off into the netherland, you go off to the wyrd world, the forest, you know, in our mythologies... all kinds of heroes journeys there. Yeah, so those three phases I feel like are really valuable as design elements. So that’s why I was talking about that. And we can talk about how to put this into someone who’s lost a child. How do we manage that, those feelings and the grief and the identity and all of the elements, the psychological elements, that go into holding that and how does one release that and reinvent themselves to be able to move forward and to not just be completely paralyzed by that loss? I think what I love about rites of passage, however you talk about them, is that they do offer tools for composting our grief, or our fear, or whatever - getting it out and turning it into something else. The transformative nature is really powerful.

Thomas: What's the benefit in designing our own ceremonies?

Ray: I think that our 21st century culture has become so individualized that certain kinds of rites of passage, the generic thing, just don't resonate. And so the benefit of a personalized sort of self designed DIY rite of passage or ceremony, transition ceremony, is that it can be something that is deeply meaningful to you. And I don't think these work if they're not deeply meaningful to you. So I would argue that there is no reason to do this if it isn't personalized. It's really important that it be meaningful, and that it come from a place that has such heart and meaning that it can that it does the sort of psychological lifting. When it is individualized, it's a creative process. It's really fun. It's really fun to think about what is the thing that nurtures me. It's really fun to think about what is the thing that I'm trying to heal. It's not fun - that's not fun. But it's healing. It's healthy to look at what is the thing that I want to let go of and how do I design something so that I can take back my power over this thing that has really hurt me or has humiliated me or that I want to leave behind. And that can be anything from a relationship to a mindset. You know? It's a lot different than talking about in therapy and I love therapy, I go to therapy. It's valuable. But again, getting into this psychic space of ego death, right? You’re kind of more open and vulnerable and you kind of like you, you're working with the programming language of the soul. And it's a lot deeper than just the cognitive stuff. We don't... cognitive is important. But this when you're working at the soul level, it's more potent.

I love that way of describing it: that what we’re doing in ritual is working with the programming language of the soul. Does that make sense? We’re getting into an area where words don’t work, so it’s a little bit difficult for me to use words to describe it, but think of the rituals you’ve participated in in your life and remember what they felt like in your body. There’s a reason we do devotional ritualized practices in religious settings. Taking the bread, stepping into the Mikvah, casting a circle with the athame. These are physical things we do to connect, ritualistic soul-level actions we take. They are separate from our thoughts. When we hear the phrase “rites of passage” we may think of life stages such as coming of age, getting married, or having children. But life transitions are not always predictable or planned. A sudden illness or loss can knock us off our game and create a need to withdraw and heal. That’s where rites of passage or ritual can become invaluable. Ritual can provide a space of deep healing where our pain can be witnessed and honored.

Ray: When I was about 25, I was involved in a bike accident. And I was not wearing a helmet and I was unconscious for a day or two. And I woke up in the hospital and I was all like, double vision, concussion - a real mess. And I got out of the hospital and I was like in bed, you know, I couldn't work, I was out. And I was just really just discombobulated. And I had this major double vision, and I was so like, I couldn't even, you know, literally couldn't see straight. And my mom called me, you know, and she said, "I would like to offer you a rite of passage at my house." And I was like, I don't know what that is but it has to be better than this wherever I am right now, this sucks. And I'm in bed and I would love to... sure whatever that is, do it up! And so she said, "Okay, I want you to invite somewhere between 6 and 10 women that are older that you look up to and that your respect," and I was like okay. And so I know she knows some cool people and I know a few cool people and I put together this list and they all came to her house at the winter solstice. And one of her friends had made me a paper machine a mask to wear for the ceremony. And it was like this beautiful thing that had a butterfly at the mouth and like flower up at the head and like these beautiful beads... and it was really... it was like, okay, so I put that on, we came to her house and there was a fire in the fireplace and all these women were sitting in a circle and I wore the mask. And they proceeded to each tell me a story, or read a poem, or kind of reflect me, or reflect the world so that I could kind of titrate it and understand it, some things about the world things that were, you know, through poetry and beautiful writings and pieces of art. And I just sat there and just absorbed this giant mirror of all these older women that were so wise and so loving and so interested in helping me heal. And I could just feel that energy and I'm wearing this mask. And then at the end of it, I had to, I had to write, based on everything I had heard, I had to write a series of commitments to myself, and like things I wanted to keep, things I wanted to nurture, things I wanted to deepen and explore. And then I had to write a series of things that I was ready to release. And she had a fire in the fireplace and at the time, I took the things I wanted to release and I put them in the fire. And we said a prayer. And then it was over and it was probably about 20 minutes. It was a short thing, maybe more - I don't remember maybe it must have been more - but anyway, it was really powerful to me. It was a really, to have all these older women hold me in that way taught me the power... and to and to experience the intentionality of that moment, the gravitas, the beauty, you know, she... the home was beautiful, it smelled nice, it was people you know, it was just a sensory experience of being in this kind of like other world. And the kind of the grace that I felt afterwards was just like, wow, I knew this was powerful! And I was really interested in doing more of it. I was in my mid 20s. And I remember kind of putting it out there and sort of doing a little bit of research after it was over, like kind of getting out of my depression hole and going down to the bookstore and researching a little bit. And I got this clear picture that this is too woo woo for the world. I can't do this now. It's not ready. It's too weird. And so I took a hard turn and I went into writing about popular culture, and, you know, teaching myself technology and HTML and like, I kind of went there. But it always stuck with me, it was always part of my soul. You know, it was like I was awakened. Wow, that's a cool thing! You can do this stuff and it really helps your soul! It helps you get out of, you know, self pity and suicidal ideation and you know, kind of loneliness and all this crap that I... and my physical thing didn't change. I still have the crazy double vision. But I was just, it was something that changed in my being. So, you know, but over the years, I sort of dabbled in it, you know, I kind of come back to it and I found it on the dance floor. And I really found like, dancing really helped me with the soul work and, you know, I would take an astrology thing here and they're like, kind of like closet woo woo, you know. And then I found this program at, you know, at Columbia, right, like, fancy-pants ivy league school has this weird little thing called the Spirituality Mind Body Institute. And it's actually not woo woo. It's a bunch of researchers who have found evidence for the benefits of spiritual exploration and spiritual experience. And I was like, okay, it's coming out. Now it's time. You're going in! So I took that program, I quit my job and I am now working on the rites of passage stuff. Lisa Miller, the woman who founded the SMBI, the Spirituality Mind Body Institute, has done all kinds of really interesting research on the power of intergenerational spirituality. So she's she says that when a young person has a container, a community, you know, who are holding them in a place where they can explore "lowercase s" spiritual practices they're so much healthier, they have a much, much higher rate of... a much lower rate of depression, anxiety, self harm suicide, and it's like 60-ish percent; it's ridiculously powerful. Yeah, yeah, it's a big deal and it's sort of free. So it's kind of, you know, it's not like you have to like build a new school or have a mountain that you know... going off to the mountaintop or anything, you can just change your practices. So it's important for families and communities to know about that.

One of my favorite things about ritual is that it can transcend space and time. What I mean by that is if there is something that happened in our past - maybe a hard time we went through all alone or a significant personal accomplishment that got overlooked by our friends and family - we can actually do ceremony for it now and bring some healing to both the past and present versions of ourselves. That may sound strange if you are new to the concept of ceremony. But if you do this work regularly, you know what I’m talking about. My first experience with this was when I read a book called “Red Flower: Rethinking Menstruation” by Dena Taylor. It inspired me to create the menarche ceremony that I never had. Because ritual transcends space and time, it didn’t matter that the ceremony took place 15 years after my first period. My inner 12-year-old was fully present and felt fully welcomed into womanhood that day. I asked Betty to reflect on her past and think of any transition she wished she had had a rite of passage for. In answering my question, she spoke about a very personal subject. She spoke about healing from an abortion. I’m pausing to give you a heads up now in case this subject is close to home for you or in case you are listening with children.

Thomas: Are there any experiences in your past that you wish you could have had it rite of passage for?

Ray: There are several. I had an abortion and that was the biggest source of shame ever. And I had no way of... I mean, I had… it was very difficult to like make peace with that or understand, you know... nobody talked about it. So, having some sort of a, you know, there's an Amanda Palmer song about an abortion… it’s a ceremony and it's beautiful and I sobbed the first time I heard it. I think having that would have been a good idea. It would have been a way to heal that in a way that was good for me. Although what I did do is I ended up moving out to California from Minnesota to honor that. It was like, I'm not ready to be a mom here. I'm gonna to go do whatever it takes for me to know that I can be a parent. And that means going out to California and sort of following an instinct that there's work out there for me that will not only be meaningful and enrich me but it will help others. Like I wanted to be able to have to have an authentic sense of myself in the world and I just had no way of doing that where I was. So coming out here was sort of that for me, but it wasn't the same and it was certainly not witnessed. No one knew about it. You know, that was my own sort of thing. Yeah.

Thomas: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I've heard that in the blood mysteries for women, that that's one of the blood mysteris, you know, that that's got that same depth as, or is considered in some circles by some healers to be, in the same depth of you know, menarche, menstruation, menopause, birth, and abortion, miscarriage even, you know, just that it's that it's that really deep, really, really deep place.

Ray: It is.

Thomas: Yeah.

Ray: Well, yeah very confrontative because it forces you to look at your life in a way of like you're at this giant fork, right? And like, what are the resources over here? What is my capacity? What does that what does that life look like? And what is the life look like on the other direction? And they’re… you can't go through it unchanged because it causes such reflection and it causes such anguish and it's so... it's very complicated. So it definitely, you know, I think it just transforms you and so for me moving out here was like, “Thank you, Little Spirit.” You know, it was all in the attempt to, well, to be able to welcome that little spirit back someday. And I don't know that I did. I don't know if my daughter is the same little spirit, but certainly there is a little spirit now too.

Thomas: Wow, thank you.

I’m so very grateful to Betty for giving us the low down on the anatomy of a rite of passage and for sharing with us so vulnerably. I encourage you to think back and notice if there’s anything in your past it might have been helpful to have a rite of passage for. It’s not too late! Together with a close group of friends and family, people who can take your healing seriously and honor your story, you can go back and have the transition witnessed.

Betty Ray is a speaker, author, and consultant who uses design thinking to co-create meaningful rites of passage to help her clients navigate transitions. Learn more about her work at bettyray dot net. If you’re a parent or work with youth, be sure to catch her talk “We Must Initiate the Young People” on YouTube. Check our show notes for links to that plus more information about Arnold Van Gennep and also Lisa Miller of the Spirituality Mind Body Institute.

Our music is by Terry Hughes. If you like the show, please take a minute to review it on Apple Podcasts. Learn more at
shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

S1 E8 A Whole Other Level of Self-Love (Jennie Taylor)

Credit Laura Breidis

Credit Laura Breidis

Episode Summary

We hear all the time that we should love ourselves more, but what does that actually look like in real life? Can self-love be more than buying ourselves flowers? Jennie Taylor shares the tools in her self-love playbook and speaks honestly about loving herself through a deeply personal surrender.

Episode Resources

→ Jennie Taylor: https://expand-coaching.com/

→ The Self-Love Playbook: https://thriveglobal.com/stories/the-self-love-playbook

Episodes by Topic

→ Episodes on Rites of Passage: https://ever-changing.net/rites-of-passage 

→ Episodes on Authentic Weddings: https://ever-changing.net/authentic-weddings 

→ Episodes on Grief & Loss: https://ever-changing.net/grief-loss 

→ Episodes on Challenging Times: https://ever-changing.net/challenging-times 

 

Support the Show

→ Subscribe In Your Favorite Player: https://kite.link/shamepinata 

→ Rate & Review: https://ever-changing.net/rate-sp 

 

About the Show

Shame Piñata is hosted by Ritual Artist Colleen Thomas, a Certified Meditation and Mindfulness teacher who helps people make sense of life through ceremony. Music by Terry Hughes.

 

Listen If

→ You’re feeling stuck

→ You’re going through a tough time

→ Something significant has happened and no one gets it


Love Shame Piñata?
Subscribe on iTunes | Follow on Spotify
Follow on Instagram | Connect on Facebook
Join us for a Ceremony | Follow on Podchaser


 
 

Full Transcript

Taylor: We all have that one thing. We all have that thing we think we're supposed to be, that we think will bring us happiness or will make us worthy of love and joy. What I've learned is that one of the deepest ways you can love yourself is just letting go of that thing.

What does it mean to love ourselves? To have our own back and be on our own team as we make the tough decisions? Is self-love really just narcissism? Is it just a new age thing? We'll speak today with Jennie Taylor, who has been on a wide and deep journey to understand what self love means for her, and who will share with us how we can learn to actually do it.

This is Shame Piñata. I’m Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. As you know, in this first season on Shame Piñata we are focusing on weddings & commitment ceremonies, a type of ceremony we are all familiar with. And we've also touched just a bit on the idea of self-commitment ceremonies, where a person commits to being their own best partner. Today we're going to look at little more deeply into the idea of self love.

I came across a wonderful article by Jennie Taylor which helped me understand that self love can be an action instead of a feeling and also that it's really a practice from moment to moment, ever-evolving as we learn to know and trust ourselves more. This idea of self love as an action reminds me of one of my favorite Mr. Rogers quotes, “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like 'struggle'. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now – and to go on caring even through times that may bring us pain."

So, self love can look like us accepting ourselves, no matter how we're feeling in the moment. And when you think about it, isn't that really the way you'd want someone to love you, to just accept you the way you are in this moment?

I also learned from Jennie's article (and this shouldn't be a surprise) that our ability to be in our body and feel our feelings has a huge impact on our ability to accept ourselves and show up for ourselves in the moment. Because if I'm not in touch with my body, I won't be as able to identify my feelings and listen to what they're telling me. I'll be disconnected from the cues that help me make decisions like should I stay or do I want to leave? Is this job a good fit for me? Is this relationship meeting my needs?

Jennie and I had a wonderful conversation a few months ago. We spoke about self love within the context of the first few weeks of the COVID-19 pandemic in the US.


Thomas: So what does self love mean to you?

Taylor: So for me, self love has really been a journey of discovering that it's really a practice. When I first started out, I was looking for this feeling of self love. And what I've learned in going through so many layers of it is that it's a ritual, it's a habit, it's a practice. It's a way I show up for myself. Specifically, I'd say the most important thing is allowing myself to feel my feelings, setting boundaries with people. That practice, you know, includes being mindful of how I spend my time, how I talk to myself, how I care for my body, it's those... practicing compassion and acceptance. So all of those things are more doing rather than a feeling.

Thomas: So I know that you've been on a journey to find self love and to concretize and weave it into your life. Can you tell us a little bit about what that journey looked like?

Taylor: Yes. I feel like the word that comes up is resistance. It's just this big journey of resistance. And me like fighting it and then giving in and fighting and giving in... And so yeah, I mean, I think, for me, it's always peeling back new layers. It started with things like, you know, trying to really like myself in my 20s, buying myself flowers, allowing myself alone time, cooking myself a nice dinner. So there were these things that I was like, yes, this is a part of self care. And I'm just going to have a special time with myself. But then what I realized when I peel back that layer is like, I still had really harsh self talk and I still was really hard on myself if I would make a mistake, sort of beat myself up. And so that led me to this other layer of like doing the work on that part of me. What was driving the the negative self talk? How could I shift that, you know? So becoming conscious of that. And then once that shifted, it was like I stopped being overly critical of myself, I stopped doing things that were bad for me like, you know, drinking a decent amount or you know, eating badly, hanging out with people that were just blatantly not good for me. But then I really still was disconnected from my body. And so when I would be stressed, I wouldn't leave a situation, or when I would be feeling really not good physically, you know, sometimes you can get yourself in a situation and you're, you physically just feel like your energy is capped or it's being drained. And I realized I wasn't criticizing myself but I was also still putting myself in these situations where I didn't feel good about myself. So that was this whole 'nother you know, layer and I would say, where I am now is sort of... it’s feeling all of my feelings, the light, the dark, the things I'm nervous make me a bad person or make me unlovable. It's feeling all of that with a really deep level of acceptance and then checking in with my body on like, how well I'm doing. You know what I mean? So if I still feel anxiety, I know I'm not there. Because when I'm in my truth and when I'm in my aligned place of self love, my body feels free, it feels clear, it feels good.

Did you get that? Jennie lets her body tell her how well she's taking care of herself. She makes the best decision she can from moment to moment and then checks in with how her body is feeling to see if her decision was a supportive one.

Thomas: I love that idea, that metric, of listening to the body checking in with the body. How does my body feel? Because the body doesn't lie.

Taylor: Absolutely. And your intuition speaks through your body. And it's funny because I actually run a triggers... like a workshop on triggers. So how to help people process these stuck beliefs and through the body. And one of the things coolest things is when you do the work, you can actually have a feeling that really triggers your body and it dissolves the more you work with it and dance with it and love it and play with it. So it's a check-in and you can sort of feel the progress within your body to over time.

Thomas: Yeah, I was always taught that it was mind, body, heart, spirit, but I've only recently realized that the emotions in the body are and so much in the gut as well. When my father passed away, that was probably one of the biggest grieving times I had and, and a lot of times when I was crying, there was no content. I wasn't thinking about him. I wasn't missing him even I was just... my body needed to cry. And yes, and it was it was almost like, you know, throwing up or something. It was just like, I had to just stepped back and let the body do it. And it helped if somebody was there to hold space, so I didn't feel like I had to stop. And then I just would go and go and go and go and go and go and go and go, go, go, go go... just just let it go. And just until it was done, and like, okay, that had to happen.

Taylor: Yes. What you're talking about is so helpful when we when we start talking about using the body to process emotion. When we're in our heads and we're creating story and we're crying and we're making it worse and making ourselves sad, that's a different type. What you're talking about is absolutely hands down the body just processing and moving on emotion when there's not a lot of thought, there's not a narrative. You're just getting it out. I felt like that with this virus as well going around. Have you?

Thomas: No, I think I'm still in my head.

Taylor: You're still in your head?

Thomas: I'm still... I'm still making plans, making plays. Yeah, you know, worrying and calling people in the you know, I'm still in that place.

Taylor: Right, right, right. Yeah, I have there been a couple of days where I am not sure what I'm crying it out, but I just have to release. It's like there's this collective angsty typing that is just heavy. We've got to get it out, you know? I think a big part of my practice has been is this useful for me to feel this or is this creating more of this negative energy? You know, so checking in on what the intention behind feeling the negative emotion is. Is it ego? Is it my body processing?

Thomas: Nice. Yeah. And how do you how do you tell?

Taylor: Usually it's a head versus - and a lot of thought - versus that body feeling that you're talking about. And for me, when I'm processing emotion, in my body, it feels like it sort of wells up and then I have to get it out, usually through tears, a lot of times breath or sound. Like if it's energy in my throat, that's usually not ego. But when it's my head sort of making me inferior making a victim, making me... you know, where there's like a strong narrative around it...

Thomas: Yeah. Yep, I hear ya.

Taylor: Yeah. So. And, and fear also, I think lives in our head when we're down that rabbit hole of like all the things that could happen. Yeah, we're in fear and fear is ego.

So when we're scared and we have scary thoughts in our heads, maybe ones that keep us awake at night or steal our attention while we're at a stoplight, those moments can take us out of our body, into our head. And the weird thing is that we can't really release that tension or resolve the feelings when we're in our head, because the emotions are in the body. I asked Jennie what she discovered about herself over the years.

Taylor: I mean, there's so many things what immediately came to mind was that I am lovable. I feel like that sounds very trite. I've also discovered just how hard on myself I was. But I think overall, which includes both of those things is that I'm human. You know, this is all part of it. And the ups and the downs and the dark and the light that's it's all safe. You know, and the truth is, it's between me and me. I don't need to expose it and to put it out there and make sure other people love my dark. I'm the only one that has to love that and accept that and explore it and so from that place, it's a lot safer and easier to explore. Because it's between me and you know, what I believe is my Creator source energy like the divine that's within me and in the universe.

Thomas: Wow, that's the lesson right there. I love that. Thank you.

Taylor: Yeah.

Thomas: So you and I had spoken a little bit before that one of the things that you went through in your life was coming to terms with the reality of not having children. making peace with that, with that reality. And I'm curious how self love was part of that process what that process was like for you and how self love was part of it.

Taylor: Yeah. So this was a big one in 2019 for me. I have always identified with being a mom, always. Like from the time I was six years old, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" "A mom." That was me, you know? And so I had cultivated self love and I'll be honest with you, part of it was in preparing myself to be a better mom, a better wife a better you know, the head of the family. And so when you're when I was doing all these things, and I still wasn't feeling like I was any closer to becoming a mother, I started having a lot of suffering. And it was self inflicted. It wasn't because society was telling me I should have a baby because I'm a woman, you know. It just it wasn't that. I was genuinely... it was like a real internal identity and a pull of like, what am I, if I don't do this with my life? It feels like this is my purpose. I feel so called to do this and I can't... I felt like I can't create it. So that awareness of the suffering, and how much I was creating that for myself, I think, opened up this bigger discussion for me with myself around surrender. And it was this sort of come-to-Jesus moment of like, I cannot create this much suffering for myself and this much self judgment and love myself at the same time. And so what needs to happen is a place of total like radical acceptance and surrender, that my life has value and meaning even if I don't even know Know what it is yet? And that's profound. To sort of like yes, you love yourself for what you know of yourself but to then peel back this layer and have to love this part of yourself that you trust has value because, you know, if you have a spiritual practice you you believe that. But you don't even know what it looks like yet you don't know what your contribution is yet. And I feel like it really was a twofold practice of like A: noticing the shame and the suffering and the thoughts, and finally just getting a place of saying, "No, I will not treat myself like this anymore. I won't". And even though I want it so badly, and I feel so called, there's something else and I trust with I trust that divine within me that knows there's some purpose here, why this hasn't happened.

Thomas: Right

Taylor: And yeah, I mean, again, that's a practice, that's showing up every day for myself. And of course there are some bad days, you know, but in those moments, it's... it really is just a call back to trust and surrender. And knowing that that's the kindest, most loving thing I can do for myself. And I'm still obviously open to it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm... it's not too late. I certainly could still have children, but it's... there's no attachment to it anymore. There's no... there's not like that need to, to have me be worthy. That's sort of how I know that I've healed that part of me, is because I don't have a narrative anymore around how it's gonna go or like why it hasn't happened. You know, sometimes I think when we're insecure about things or we are resisting things, we have a narrative around why it hasn't happened to sort of cover up our shame. And for me right now, it's just, I don't know. I really have no story anymore. I have no... I have no ending one way or the other. It feels so good to be in this place of such tension and such pain and suffering right in my body to then move through it and claim this other part of my power.

Thomas: Right.

Taylor: And yeah, just feel sort of lighter and still open but not attached.

Thomas: Right. Right. You've like moved beyond the story in the detachment.

Taylor: Yes, yes. It's just... I'm very much in trust. And I think I think one common misconception or mistake is that people will surrender in order to get there. And there's still that attachment to... "Okay, but I have to let go of it all and then I'll get it!" You know, that's all I think it's common right now where there's a lot of talk around manifestation. And the purpose with the context of self love is: Do it because it's kind to yourself. Don't do it to get it. You know what I mean?

Thomas: Well, thank you so much. It's been so awesome just getting to know you and absolutely continuing to have a conversation.

Taylor: Back at you and I hope you know our conversations continue on and on. So yes, yes.

I'm so grateful to Jennie for sharing her wisdom with us, not only on her ever-deepening explorations of self love, but also for her reminders on the wisdom our bodies offer us right now, in this moment. I hope you can take a minute today to take one or maybe even two deep breaths and notice how your body feels. You might even see if you can sense your body's response as you make decisions like working another few hours or taking a break, reading a book or taking a walk. Just noticing. You might notice if you can even feel your body today. And if you can't, it's okay. Your body is there, just waiting to connect. Waiting to accept you in this moment, no matter how you are.

Jennie Taylor is a certified leadership coach and founder of Expand Coaching, an organization aimed at helping clients deepen connection and authenticity in the workplace and with oneself. Her Expand Within program focuses on the components of Self-Love and gives practical ways to cultivate it to impact all areas of life: career, relationships, purpose. Before coaching full-time, Jennie spent 16 years in the healthcare and technology industries as a sales leader. You can learn more about her and book a free session at
www.expand-coaching.com

Our music is by Terry Hughes. If you like the show, please take a minute to review it on Apple Podcasts. Learn more at
shamepinata.com. I’m Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.